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< Back KATHRINE BOYKO Student, Brooklyn Law "My mom was a lawyer in Ukraine. She had to leave her home country to make sure I had a better life. And so it was really important for me to carry on those dreams, carry on that ambition." Previous Next

< Back AJ BELLIDO de LUNA Coach, St. Mary's University "I'm not building competitors. I'm building advocates. I'm building people who are going to go out and represent people who don't have representation." Previous Next

< Back Episode 12 12. The Promised Land Air date: August 16, 2022 For the first time in its history, Dillard sends a team to the National Tournament! Dozens of teams from around the country descend on Lancaster, PA, to not only admire the trophies, but to battle each other in the old courthouse. Adria has brought her team to the Promised Land in what will be her last tournament with the team. History will be made. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: Dillard University Pre-Law Program American Mock Trial Association National Black Law Students Association National Bar Association Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson Legal Defense Fund Harvard Law School UC Hastings Law School Southern University Law Center National Association for Law Placement (NALP) Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . Previous Next

< Back Episode 8 8. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Air date: July 19, 2022 Matt Skinner and Tyler Volesky are sons of prominent defense attorneys in South Dakota who honor their Native American heritage by fighting for justice. Matt takes us inside the Minnehaha County Public Defender’s office, where he argues in real court on behalf of a Native client. Tyler is following in his father's footsteps in both law and politics. But first, he must overcome some obstacles in the world of mock trial. University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law Hofstra University School of Law American University Washington School of Law Howard University School of Law Minnehaha County Public Defender's Office ICWA (Indian Child Welfare Act) information Tribal Justice: 25 Years as a Tribal Appellate Justice by Frank Pommersheim Tribal Law Journal National Native American Bar Association The Legal Construction of Discriminatory Mass Surveilance by Gregrory Brazeal Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT Katie Phang [narration]: Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. [audio from mock trial competition via Zoom] Matt Skinner: Thank you, your honor. Matt Skinner: Now, Detective [Figton 00:00:09], you were the lead investigator of this murder? Detective Figton: I was. Matt Skinner: And you'd agree that there are important parts of an investigation? Detective Figton: Of course. Laura Rose: Matt Skinner was in my trial ad class last spring. And when we got to cross examination weekend trial ad, he came in and said, "I know that I can push this, but I don't know how." And that was the first time that a student had come to me outside of class and said, "Hey, can you show me how to get to this higher level? I know there's something there, but what do I need to do?" And he came into class that night with this cross examination that just utterly devastated the witness and was brutal. Matt Skinner: Now let's talk about that. You measured the crime scene? Detective Figton: I did. Matt Skinner: The shooter was 65 yards away from the deceased? Detective Figton: Yes. Matt Skinner: You measured these distances with three-foot-wide steps? Detective Figton: I did. Matt Skinner: You didn't use a tape measure? Detective Figton: No. Matt Skinner: You didn't use a yard stick. You used nothing to provide a more accurate measurement. Detective Figton: I use my three feet gait to measure, and I think that's very accurate. Matt Skinner: Is it more accurate than a tape measure? Detective Figton: No. Matt Skinner: No further questions, your honor. Katie Phang [narration]: You're listening to Class Action. We're back in South Dakota. It's getting colder outside, and the mock trial season is rolling on. This is episode eight, Standing on the Shoulders of Giants. [inside the office of Minnehaha County Public Defender] Derek Hoffman: Matt, give us your debrief. Matt Skinner: I felt good about it. I thought I did a good job. I think our argument works. I think it's in our favor. Katie Phang [narration]: Recently, we spent a day with Matt Skinner, who's a standout intern at the Minnehaha County Public Defender 's Office in Sioux Falls. Matt's a third-year law student, and is certified to conduct legal work in the state. Today, he's working with a client who claims that his rights were abused by the Sioux Falls police department during an arrest. Client: And I'm like, "What?" And I open the door, and then I go out and I say, "How did you guys get in here?" And it's just... Matt Skinner: I was going to say something about that. So- Attorney: Well you- Matt Skinner: ... we can't take anything that he has to say with actual validity. Katie Phang [narration]: Matt is assigned to work with Derek Hoffman , himself a recent grad and a former mock trial competitor. The two of them walk their client over to the county courthouse, which is just two blocks away. Derek Hoffman: Matt is going to cross examine the cops today. Client: All right. Derek Hoffman: Okay. He's going to pretty much do the whole thing. He's more than qualified. Client: Right. Derek Hoffman: He's on trial team. It's the same thing. There's no difference. It's probably easier to cross examine a real cop than a fake cop because these real cops are dumber. Then we'll debrief afterwards. Matt Skinner: I've always wanted to do defense work. I applied to the public defender's office. And they gave me a chance, and I really liked it. My name is Matthew Skinner Jr, and I am a 3L. So I am from the Oglala Sioux tribe. My dad is Matthew Skinner Sr. He's got a practice out in Rapid City, and he has done criminal law since I was born. Got a trial coming up, and my mom and dad would sit in the front seat, talk about it. And I'd be in the back leaning forward, trying to listen as much as I could. I'd say I'm defense-minded because of my dad. I love what he does. A lot of police officers that I've talked to have been like, "Well, you're just trying to get the bad guy away." And it's like, "No, I'm trying to make sure you do your job. If you missed a step in your investigation, that should not affect this person. You need to do your job to the best of your ability. And I'm holding you accountable to that." Client: I'll follow along. Matt Skinner: You going to do the first cop? Derek Hoffman: I think you got it, dude. Matt Skinner: I can't remember how to do the recollection. Katie Phang [narration]: Back inside the law school building in Vermillion, students are in between classes. They're work-shopping they're opening statements. Tyler Volesky: Should I turn my computer off? The volume? Student: Yeah. Tyler Volesky: Yeah. That's what I'm going to do. Student: Oh, wait. I can turn mine off. Sorry. Tyler Volesky: May it please the court, counsel, your honor. Today, you're going to see a contrast between fantasy and reality. Katie Phang [narration]: Tyler Volesky is a second-year law student. Today, he's practicing with his trial team for its first competition of the season. Tyler Volesky: The case is a fun fact pattern, and it's a wrongful death. You see, what tears families apart as they fight over money. And in this case, we got $125 million estate, and greed gets the best of people sometimes. Tyler Volesky: That's good advice on how to put that together. Tyler Volesky: This is something that excites me. It's a lot of work, can be stressful, but it's what I want to do. And when people think of lawyers, when they think of the profession, they think about the trials. That's what makes the lawyers. It's a little bit of theater involved, and you get to show off a little bit. The trial, that's the pinnacle of practicing law, I think. Some people just want to sit in an office all day and open probates and look at estates and never see a courtroom. I would get bored after a while. [inside classroom with professor Greg Brazeal and his class of law students at USD] Greg Brazeal: As an overarching really important statistic for today's discussion, I think it is worthwhile to keep in mind the higher rate of police killings in the United States versus other countries. We don't have a lot of data on... Greg Brazeal: My name is Greg Brazeal. I'm an assistant professor at the University of South Dakota Law School. And the name of the class is Selected Issues in Criminal Law. So today we're turning to policing, the rise of the warrior cop. I love teaching this class, even though it involves a lot of difficult conversations. Greg Brazeal: I recently did that ride along with the Vermillion Police Department. And it seemed like they are very much a community-based problem-solving department. That being said, the State of South Dakota did offer a grant to the South Dakota, DOC Midwest Gang Investigators Association to have this event that took place last year in Sioux Falls, featuring Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, the killology guy. Here is an extreme, but not a typical, quote from the kind of presentation that Dave Grossman makes. "We are at war, and our cops are the frontline troops in that war. You are the Delta Force. It's your job to put a piece of steel in your fist and kill those sons of bitches when they come to kill our kids." Katie Phang [narration]: The law students are confronting the rise in police militarization here in their own home communities. South Dakota has a strong tradition of politeness, respect, helping your neighbors. A lot of people don't even lock their doors at night, but these days the rhetoric says they're at war. Greg Brazeal: Final word? Female Student: I was in about seventh or eighth grade when I had the SWAT raid my home at 3:00 in the morning, looking for my brother who was already incarcerated. So you have seventh to eight people coming in with their flashlights, their extremely large guns. You know what I mean? Me and my little sister, my mom and my dad, and you're looking for my brother. How much research, how much did you have to do to look and see that he was already locked up? Why are you looking for him in our house in the middle of... You see what I'm saying? So that's where it's just that distrust, things like that, where there has to be this, I wouldn't say like a bright line rule, where in these instances, we need it. And in these, you can't. I just think it really, it creates a lot of distrust. Greg Brazeal: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. This, and one more comment. Male Student: It's unreasonable. There are circumstances where we do need a strong police force, but there might get to a point, and this is not farfetched, where they are so powerful that we can't tell them no. Even if what they're doing is unjust. Greg Brazeal: Tyler. Tyler Volesky: If you don't like something like Burn, it's politicians that put it in the place. So if you think we're funding too much militarization in the police, who's put in that place? Oftentimes, it's the police officers who get blamed for carrying out these policies that are put in place by higher ups, and politicians make these decisions. So maybe, like you said, we can hold the politicians accountable. Greg Brazeal: Exactly. And that trust issue has such huge consequences for crime. So if you're concerned about reducing crime, you have to care about trust. We'll talk about that when we do the police legitimacy unit as well. All right. Thanks, everyone. Katie Phang [narration]: Back in Sioux Falls, Matt Skinner is inside Courtroom Number One, defending his client. This is an actual case, not a mock trial. Today's appearance is a suppression hearing. And the Minnehaha County DA 's office objected to the presence of our microphones. Matt is questioning the procedures taken by two Sioux Falls cops during the arrest of his client. Matt Skinner: ... do this stuff every day. Katie Phang [narration]: It's a big assignment for an intern, a sign that the public defender's office has confidence in his abilities. Matt Skinner: I tell myself, for this suppression all week, I was nervous for it obviously and stressed, but the best way I can cope with that stress is telling myself, "All I have to do is my best because I am not the reason that this person is in court today. Whether they did it or not is of issue for a jury." Katie Phang [narration]: The suppression hearing lasts about an hour. Matt checks in with his client in the hallway afterwards. Client: I never been a part of any of that. So it was interesting to watch how that actually goes down. You can question the cops, and see the cops nervous for once. Matt Skinner: Yeah. Thanks for letting me take the reins on that, too. I appreciate it. It was a great learning experience. Spent a lot of time with it, texting Derek at random hours. "Hey, can you look this up for me?" Client: No, no. That's cool. Matt Skinner: But I appreciate it. Client: Yep. And I'll get with your office and find out my next- Katie Phang [narration]: It's going to be a busy day. So as soon as Matt gets a free minute, he calls his dad. [Matt calling his dad in hallway of courthouse] Matt Skinner: Can you hear me? Matt Skinner Sr: I do. Matt Skinner: So it went well. They ended up calling two of the three officers. Matt Skinner Sr: Right. Matt Skinner: The one officer was newly a cop. So it felt like a showdown between the newbie lawyer and the newbie cop. But I got him to essentially admit that he never read Miranda, and that he should have. Matt Skinner Sr: Oh, really? He admitted that? But did he admit that he should have read them? Matt Skinner: Yeah. He's like I didn't, but I should have. Matt Skinner Sr: Ooh. That's a pretty good point for you. It's hard to win those suppression hearings, and you just got to go for it. Right? That's how you learn. That's how you get better. That's the fear, is you don't want to look stupid. But all of us as attorneys have been there. So now, I'm sure you're glad you did the whole thing, that you did both of the cops. Matt Skinner: Yeah. Matt Skinner Sr: You know what I mean? Matt Skinner: Oh yeah, for sure. I only did one stupid thing, too. Matt Skinner Sr: Well, who cares. Matt Skinner: I didn't know how to basically question the cop about the impaired driver report. So I'm standing there. I'm like, oh my God. I don't know what I'm doing. I had to call the attorney over to basically walk me through it while I was standing next to the cop. Matt Skinner Sr: And now that you've done that, you know how to do it. Matt Skinner: We'll talk more about it at the cabin week. Matt Skinner Sr: Right. I'll talk to later, maybe tonight too. Matt Skinner: All right. I'll talk to you later. Love you. Matt Skinner Sr: All right. Love you, too. Later. Matt Skinner: Later. [outside home of Tyler Volesky, production team getting inside his car with him] Producer: So it's very trusting to keep the keys in the car. Tyler Volesky: Yeah. That's the thing in South Dakota. I don't lock the house. I keep my keys in the car. [interior of car, driving around Vermillion, South Dakota] Tyler Volesky: So right here, this is what's famous in Vermillion. You have the Dakota Dome. This is where the football team plays. But yeah, this is the jewel of Vermillion right here. Producer: What's happening there? Tyler Volesky: Let's see here. Let's go by here. Oh, oh, preseason scrimmage, maybe? I think that's the football team, the Coyotes. We're at Main Street. This is where I get my haircut, the Coyote Barber Shop. There's the Varsity Pub. My roommate, he's a lawyer. He practices right over there. Carey's, that's the scholarly bar. That's where we have all our socials. [laughter] Tyler Volesky: Okay. Here's our courthouse. They're talking about building a new one, but I don't think that's going to... Taxpayers aren't going to go for that, I don't think. South Dakota has this notion of tough on crime, lock them up. Well, you got to take into account somebody's life story, their history, what they've been through, what's created them to be in that situation. And I definitely see myself in that role helping the underdog and just being as best advocate as I can for people that are underdogs to society that have a mistrust of the system. So Vermilion's a unique location. So over past this river, then you're in Nebraska. I don't know what your stereotypes about South Dakota people are, but I've never hunted. I don't fish. I don't camp. I don't hike. Growing up, yeah, I came from an athlete family. So sports were important. And I know about politics, law- [exiting car, walking onto gravel in parking lot of park and lakefront] Let's get out here. Tyler Volesky: Like a lot of these politicians, I'll tell you how they do it. They can talk about the culture. I'm not going to put on a cowboy hat or shoot a gun just for votes. Well, I guess my situation in my hometown, everybody knows I'm Native American because my dad and everything. So traditionally, though, a lot of Native Americans, it's part of the old culture. They hunted the buffalo on the prairie for survival. I don't know. I never got into it because my thing was that, in the early part of November, the last thing I want to do is be in a field at seven o'clock in the morning when it's 32 degrees out. You know what I mean? [Tyler exiting vehicle, car door, walking into office of Dennis Olson] Dennis Olson: Hi, good to see. Tyler Volesky: Hey, good to see you. Dennis Olson: Glad you came up. One of the calls I was on this week was recruiting candidates to run. I will tell you, Tyler's name was brought up. And I have no doubt that if there's any candidate that if they want to rise up in the party and give up some of themselves to help others, this is the person that'll do it. Well, my name's Dennis Olson. I'm from Huron, South Dakota. I am the national committeeman for the South Dakota Democratic Party. Got the opportunity to join him and work with on his campaign. Tyler Volesky: I did a lot of parades, homecoming parades, a couple debates. And then a lot of campaigning door to door. So it's a lot of work. Katie Phang [narration]: In 2017, Tyler Volesky ran for state representative as a Democrat following in his dad's footsteps of public service. Dennis Olson: What Tyler had, where he was working for everybody, he will represent everybody and be a voice for everyone. There's individuals like Tyler, in his age, that are fired up. And like Barack Obama would say, "And ready to go." They have the enthusiasm that's been missing. Katie Phang [narration]: Dennis remembered to bring along some old campaign clips to play for Tyler. Tyler Volesky: So what speech is this from? Is this from one of my speeches? Or did we write this out? I don't know. So I got to do a speech? Dennis Olson: But if there's two, I can't remember. It looks like there's two versions. I know I did. Tyler Volesky: Oh, right. Right here. There's two of them. Dennis Olson: Well, there's two versions. My last version was the best, I think. But yeah. Tyler Volesky: Yeah. Dennis Olson: That's it. This is a good one. [audio from Tyler Volesky campaign speech video] Tyler Volesky: Thank you for coming to be here today. I will say, running for office as a first-time candidate, I announced when I was 26 years old, and it's been a very, at time, stressful experience, but also very rewarding experience. It's been an honor and one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Well, the second. Number one is coaching my baseball team [audience laughter] because kids always come first. They're always in my heart, number one. But it's been a great journey, and we're going to finish off strong these next four days now. And we're going to get a big victory on November 6th, November 6th. Katie Phang [narration]: Tyler ran as a Democrat in a majority Republican district. He went door to door and pulled votes from the incumbents. Tyler Volesky: Even though we didn't win, we over-performed based on the voting registration. But when I got out of there, I said, "This isn't the end of it. We're just getting started here. It's just a matter of when we get that next opportunity." Katie Phang [narration]: Tyler Volesky still has that fire in the belly to get out and help the Democratic Party. The party of working people, of diversity, the party that tries to include everybody under its big tent. [audio from Tyler Volesky campaign speech video] Tyler Volesky: Let's talk a little bit about running for office. It's been a very rewarding and a very humbling journey. I see some of all these beautiful letters that many of you have written about me, all the fond words that you've written about me. And I think to myself, who the hell are they talking about? But it's been a great journey, and we got to keep it going. Dennis Olson: If you ever think of running, you can get your dad's old district back. And so, like I said, I'm concerned about democracy and putting food on the table. We have people are working two and three jobs just trying to make it, okay? That's why is we got fire in the belly for Democrats to get involved and do the thing. Tyler Volesky: You don't know what's going to happen in the future. That's one thing that I've learned. Sometimes you take a detour. But if you have that goal, no matter what detour you take, the path will always lead you back there. If you want it. [walking with Tyler before Hofstra remote competition] Malia Lukomski: How you feel wearing a suit? Tyler Volesky: Oh, I like it. I like dressing up. That's one of the things I enjoy about the legal profession. You get to look nice and wear a suit. Katie Phang [narration]: Tyler has finally arrived at his big moment. His first appearance at a mock trial. Tyler Volesky: It just gives you a little edge, a little confidence. And people treat you different. When I'm walking at the gas station today, everybody opens the door and says, "Hi, sir. How you doing?" Where normally I don't get that treatment. Katie Phang [narration]: But once inside the courtroom, that suave outward appearance starts to give way to nervous tension. [footsteps walking, door opens into courtroom, team prepares for competition] Tyler Volesky: Okay. And you want to turn that down? Student: Oh wait. No, I can turn mine off. Sorry. Tyler Volesky: Like I said, I just want to hit the care for grandma, gambling. Try to get that search history in. If not, I'll finish with a few follow up questions, and then we'll move on. Jace, that should be pretty straightforward. And I guess where we're at on time might determine whether I redirect, although it's probably not going to be too long. Coach: So here's the mentality and redirect. If you think it was super damning that they brought something up that you need to address, in, out, four questions, right? Bailiff [via Zoom]: Mr. Miller and Mr. Volesky, we're ready whenever you are. Tyler Volesky: May it please the court, counsel, members of the jury. The case before you today comes down to fact versus fiction. The factual reality that Jace Billington experienced every single day that he lived with his grandmother, caring for. And the fictional fantasy of his younger sister Parker. Members of the jury, my name is Tyler Volesky, along with my co-counsel Mr. Miller, Dylan Miller. Over the course of this trial- Katie Phang [narration]: The team battles for position in the case, but calling of exhibits online, it's a technological nightmare. Tyler Volesky: I have to put exhibits on there through the computer. And I just learned how to share that last night. Katie Phang [narration]: Then, under the judge's watchful eye, one of the witnesses throws them a curve ball. Tyler Volesky: Hello, Ms. Billington, can you please introduce yourself to the jury? [pause] Tyler Volesky: I don't know if we have... Bailiff [via Zoom]: Are we missing someone? Tyler Volesky: I don't know if we have our witness. She was our assigned witness. She's from Hofstra. Bailiff [via Zoom]: She was your assigned witness. Okay. Tyler Volesky: Yes. Bailiff [via Zoom]: Hang on. Tyler Volesky: Our witness did not show up right away. So I was supposed to do a direct examination right away during our case-in-chief. And I called the witness, and our witness was not there. So we had to move ahead and do Dylan's part first. And I was like, uh-oh. This could be bad. We don't have our witness here. That's going to look really bad for the school. Bailiff: You're fine. Judge: This is fine. Hey, good job. Judge: Good job, guys. Judge: Thanks for your time, Alex. Really appreciate the feedback. Katie Phang [narration]: As soon as the trial comes to a close, Tyler calls his dad for some perspective. [door opens, footsteps, phone rings] Ron Volesky: Hey buddy. Hey, how's it going? Tyler Volesky: Good. I wanted to talk to you about what went down today. I had the trial, and I absolutely killed it. And I got the best opening award. No, I'm just kidding. Actually, it was disappointing today anyway. We were set to go at one o'clock and they switched the bracket up on us. We don't know exactly how it was going. We were supposed to go twice, and then the top teams advanced to the finals, but I don't know. Either they switched up the bracket. But regardless, we're not going today. What was your first trial like? What was your experience like with that? Ron Volesky: Oh, I had a good experience. I was well prepared. It's like anything in life. If you're prepared, you can have one. See, this is good experience for you for the real world. Because you're preparing for trial right now. Tyler Volesky: Hopefully we go. If not, any other last words of advice? Ron Volesky: No advice. Just to say, Tyler, I love you. You have that natural gift of communication. You don't learn that in books. It's just something you're born with. And you were born with it. And you always strive for you it, and you've got it. You got the it factor, buddy. Tyler Volesky: All right. Talk to you later. Ron Volesky: God bless you. Bye-bye. [audio inside classroom with professor Ann Tweedy and her class of law students at USD] Ann Tweedy: So let's look at Adoptive Couple versus Baby Girl, which seems like it's in serious tension with Holyfield in a couple of different ways. So we'll pull that apart a bit. So- Katie Phang [narration]: Professor Ann Tweedy teaches the Indian Law Class. South Dakota was one of the first states to put an Indian Law question on its Bar exam. Ann Tweedy: ... whether it's seen differently by many people. But ICWA certainly is for the benefi t of tribes. And so ambiguities are to be resolved in favor of the tribe. Statutes are to be liberally consumed- Katie Phang [narration]: Today, they're tackling a major controversy, a case that's actually headed to the United States Supreme Court. [archival audio from South Dakota Public Broadcasting Radio report] Victoria Wicks: Earlier this week, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals released an extensive opinion on the Indian Child Welfare Act . Lawyers immediately started to examine its potential effect on legal processes in place for more than 40 years. An attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union says much of the law still stands, but some important protections have been found unconstitutional. Ann Tweedy: The Indian Child Welfare Act, which we also referred to as ICWA , was passed in 1978. Native children were being removed by state social service workers and placed with non-Indian families. And there were some studies that revealed these hugely disparate problems with native children being removed. And so ICWA was supposed to remedy that. And so it put in protections so that the child would stay with the family, and there were also placement preferences so that if a child was removed, they would go to a family that was within the tribe, an extended family member, before they would go to a non-Indian family. [inside classroom with students] Ann Tweedy: Right. That's a big part of it, is that they're saying the family's not being broken up if there never was a family, according to the court. So we have 1912... Ann Tweedy: Native families are in danger of losing their children. So that's a huge problem. ICWA's trying to undo these centuries of oppression, where tribal governments and tribal cultures were the target of these destructive policies. And if we end those remedial policies, we'll instantiate more injustice for tribal families and tribal cultures, too. Because there's also a concern, well, tribes will die out if so many of their children are taken away. How can they even sustain themselves? Ann Tweedy: It goes to show just how complicated it is. Tyler. Tyler Volesky: Oh, can I share a personal story? My father was born on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation. He grew up in poverty, came from a home of alcoholism and violence and abuse. And all of a sudden, the Department of Social Services showed up with no notice, and they just took him from the home and put him in foster care four hours away in Huron, to a white family. And throughout his childhood, there was a huge battle. He went back and forth to the res. Then his mom would go down a bad road. Then he would go back to the foster home, and there was a big custody battle. And eventually he was adopted. [sounds of streets of Huron, light traffic, birds chirping; inside law office of Ron Volesky] Ron Volesky: I just have to make sure my dog Snow's out of the office because sometimes she has the tendency to bark when people come in the front door. So just excuse me. Snow, where are you? Snow, snow. Come here. I don't have to comb my hair? I don't have to put any mousse in my hair or anything like that? Producer [via phone]: No, mm-mm (negative). Ron Volesky: We're okay? Okay. Ron Volesky: My name is Ron Volesky. I'm an attorney here in South Dakota, and I just usually go by Ron Volesky, Attorney-at-law. I have been told by my relatives, I've been advised that we are in the lineage of Sitting Bull. How many generations back that goes, I'm not certain. But I have been told by my family that we are in the ancestral line of Chief Sitting Bull. Makes me feel humbled, and makes me feel very glad about who I am. I was born on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation , as my siblings all were. We were born into poverty. We were born into family dysfunction. We were born into alcoholism, and there was some physical abuse, et cetera. I loved my mother, but she was an alcoholic. And there were times when the welfare agency, they would come and take us children and put us in foster homes and foster care, different places. My brother was about three. Maybe I was five, and he was four. We were just young kids. And that went on for a number of years until finally the Welfare Department said, "Well, that's enough." I ended up being adopted by the Voleskys. And my mom said, "Yeah, you showed up. The head of the Welfare Department, brought you to the house. You had a t-shirt on with a hole in it. You had some little shorts on. You had tenor shoes with a hole in both toes, and a shoebox. And that was all your belongings." [crying] And they took me in. They loved me, and they raised me. And I'm here today as an example of love and courage by a white family that adopted a little Indian child from the reservation. My father was the custodian at Lincoln School. And every day after school, I would go down to where he was working at the school, and I'd play basketball hour after hour in the gym. [sounds of basketball game in a gym] And also played some football, ran track, played baseball, all those things. I wasn't Jim Thorpe, but I was a pretty decent all-round athlete. You always got some war hoops in basketball from different fans around the state, but I took that as a compliment because I was a good player. And when the other side was trying to do chants and war hoops when I was shooting free throws, I took that as a badge of honor. Maybe even a sign of respect towards me. My father that adopted me, he died when I was a freshman in high school. So I often say I became a juvenile delinquent, which I did for a year or two. But I ran into a guidance counselor named Donna Brown, who called me down to her office one day. And she said, "I don't know what you're doing. You're flunking this and you're flunking that. But," she said, "your test scores are very high." And she said, "How would you like to go to Harvard?" And I said, "Well, I don't know anything about Harvard. Don't know that I've ever heard of it, except I know they played the Carlisle Indians back in 1912 and got beat. But not even sure where it is." She said, "Well, it's in Cambridge, Massachusetts." So I did my part, and she did her part. And I got an opportunity to go to Harvard, and spent four years there in college. And I went to the University of South Dakota Law School . And I was very interested in politics at that point in time. Katie Phang [narration]: Ron Volesky was elected to the state legislature as a Republican in 1980. The only Native American lawmaker at the time. [archival audio from campaign speech of Ron Volesky] Ron Volesky: [inaudible 00:33:24] say, where's Native American representation in state government? How many cabinet members in state government are Native America? How many Native Americans on the circuit court bench throughout the State of South Dakota? When are we going to get representation in this government like we should have, and like we need to have? I say to the power structures, listen to what's happening out there, and let's make state government and the judicial system more representative of the population as a whole. Can I have an amen? Crowd: Amen. Ron Volesky: And I'm just going to say this in closing... [interior car, driving] Tyler Volesky: He was a barrier breaker in the sense that I think he was the first Native American to run for governor for a major party at the time in the United States. I used to go to the Standing Rock. I remember, when my dad was running for governor, we went to the reservation. Yeah, I met some of my uncles and family that I didn't even know personally. My dad's represented a lot of Native Americans throughout the state because he's well known in Indian territory. And being one of the few Native American attorneys, they know you, and they might not know too many lawyers. So they give him a call. He tries to help people from where he came from as much as he can. Ron Volesky: In tribal court, things are much more informal, but family structures are much more different among native people than they are among the white dominant society. So when you're in those areas of practicing law in tribal court, you have to understand those nuances. We don't have a lot of Native American attorneys in South Dakota. I think we need more Native American attorneys on the reservations. We don't have enough. Native Americans are rather reserved people. They aren't the types of people that are real aggressive, but yet they are strong people. And they know that. And I think that helps them at times to be able to rise above racism, bigotry, and prejudice and really become what they want to become. And here's the deal, what they want to become isn't always what the dominant white society would think that they should want to become. They have their own sense of wellbeing. And that wellbeing sometimes isn't in harmony with the society outside them. [inside classroom of Greg Brazeal with law students at USD] Greg Brazeal: We'll be talking about Native Americans and criminal justice. Please coming up and welcome professor Frank Pommersheim. In case any of you do not- Katie Phang [narration]: Back in professor Greg Brazeal's class, Tyler meets the man who wrote the tribal court handbook, a 60s radical who drove out to the prairie in a battered Chevy Nova and didn't look back. He ended up teaching Tribal Law at USD. Frank Pommersheim: Historically, there have been very few figures in state politics in particular that show respect to Indian people. What we say to me, "Frank, until people show us respect, we're not going to be able to go forward." In one of my last couple years in Indian law, I had students read a book by Louise Erdrich or other Indian authors. And my assignment went something like this: write a three-page book review of this. As students were saying, it just really confronted stuff, or Indian people saying that they found it tough fitting into law school because they didn't feel that law school really had enough space for them. I guarantee you, you cannot be a good prosecutor unless you have some understanding that racism actually exists, and it's a possibility in every case that you have. And certainly, from the defense side, of course you have to, I believe, entertain it. If you just pretend that it doesn't exist "because you're a good person". No, you can't be a good lawyer. You definitely cannot. Greg Brazeal: Let me get a round of applause for Professor Pommersheim. Thank you. [applause] Frank Pommersheim: Thanks so much. I really enjoyed it. Katie Phang [narration]: In Sioux Falls, Matt Skinner's internship at the public defender's office is coming to a close. He and Derek are meeting with a new client. Derek Hoffman: Matt, why don't you run through the charge? Matt Skinner: Okay. So yeah, DUI first and speeding. The location of the traffic stop was on Interstate 90, mile marker 398, Minnehaha County. When the officer arrived on the scene, spoke with Trooper Jensen, who informed him that the driver who was stopped for traveling 102 miles per hour in a 65 mile per hour speed zone. Does that sound right so far? Client: Yes. Matt Skinner: While in the patrol vehicle, the officer detected the odor of alcoholic beverage. Is that right? Client: That's right. Matt Skinner: A breath test was administered. The reading was 0.13 breath alcohol content. You were placed under arrest for driving under the influence, first offense, transported to jail. Client: Yes. Matt Skinner: And this was at 3:30? Client: Yes. I was traveling from central South Dakota, in lower rural, the Indian reservation. Matt Skinner: So is that where you had the drinks? Client: Yes. That morning, early morning hours from 0300. Matt Skinner: Okay. Matt Skinner: Are you in the military? Client: I was in the military. Yes. Matt Skinner: Marines? Speaker 26: Client: Matt Skinner: Where were you going? Client: I have something I need to disclose to you guys right now. I'm on a suspended imposition right now for reckless driving charge. Matt Skinner: For reckless? Client: Yeah. Matt Skinner: Okay. Client: And that was actually a DUI. I was dealing with a suicide of one of my brothers-in-arms at the time, and I was mourning that death. And that's why I lost control of myself at that point. This incident was mourning a cousin of mine. That's why I was back in the reservation and traveling back here through Sioux Falls. Matt Skinner: Okay. Client: So I think it's a little bit of a pattern there. I don't know if that matters. Matt Skinner: That definitely matters. Client: Is there going to be like jail time because it's suspended imposition? Matt Skinner: On this case, the offer right out of the gate is just a standard first DUI. Does that make sense? Client: Yeah, that's probably a good thing then? Okay. Matt Skinner: All right. So what we'll do today is we can ask for the delay on your behalf, so you can leave if you want. I know you've been here a while. Client: I'll stay and go up. Matt Skinner: Okay. Okay. Client: Accept responsibilities for my actions. Matt Skinner: All right. Thanks. [in office, Matt talking with Derek] Matt Skinner: That was, honestly, nice that he did that. Because I would guess that most clients wouldn't be like, "Hey, I already have a suspended imposition." He was like, "I got to tell you right now I have this," which was really nice to actually have. Laura Rose: When I'm looking for a trial lawyer, I am looking for somebody who, at the end of the day, do you have a capacity to look at another human being, who is separate and apart from you, to empathize with their situation and to recognize when an injustice has occurred under the rules, and then zealously argue. I want them all day long and twice on Sunday. Katie Phang [narration]: Coach Laura Rose runs the trial team and teaches classes. On top of all that, this year she submitted the documents for tenure review. [inside home of Laura Rose, on phone call with her father] Laura Rose: Dad, you got the email that I forwarded you last night, right? Katie Phang [narration]: Wanting some father/daughter time. She calls her dad, who happens to be Professor Charles Rose III, Dean of the College of Law at Ohio Northern University. Charles Rose [via phone]: Oh yeah. The one about the course syllabi? Laura Rose: No, not the course syllabi one. Not that one. Well, hang on. I didn't even send you the one that I wanted to send you. Let me send you this one. Katie Phang [narration]: Charles Rose spent 20 years on active duty in the United States Army and was on the faculty at Stetson University, where he led the trial team to the number one ranking for 12 years. He also wrote the book, actually lots of books, on trial advocacy, including one he co-authored with his daughter, Laura. Laura Rose: How's the end of your semester wrapping up? Charles Rose [via phone]: We're all busier than we have any right to be, particularly the trial team. Because we're now done with competitions, except for National Trial League, which we've got going on. Laura Rose: I love my dad a great deal. He's my hero. He's who I want to be when I grow up. I've modeled my career after him. I have very fond memories of when daddy started law school, I started kindergarten. So a daddy and daughter used to get up in the morning and go to school together. Right? He would drop me off at school. And my whole life, it's been like that. He's provided me with unending opportunities. Laura Rose: Well, and you see that habit in some of the competitions where people are picking one fact, or two facts, and overdramatizing it. And relying on that. I just, I don't know how to square that with the obligation that we have to educate lawyers. Right? Laura Rose: I'm not going to teach my students how to act. That's not my job. My job is to teach them how to advocate. Charles Rose [via phone]: I get that. But if you'll think about it for a minute, you have to train them to deal with the person who's all show and no go, so that when they run into that in the real world, they know how to take them apart. Laura Rose: So how do I fix it for next semester? My instinct is to keep teaching the way that I have been teaching, and have the conversations with the students that I've been having in terms of this works. This doesn't. This is why. Charles Rose [via phone]: We have to pull the emotion out of these Midwestern kids at a greater level so that it comes through the camera. Because what's happening is that they tend to be self-effacing, standing upright, polite young men and women, right? Laura Rose: Yeah. Charles Rose [via phone]: And then you put the lens of the camera on top of that. The camera creates this barrier to communication. [Producer with Tyler, walking to the courtroom before the Capitol City Challenge competition] Tyler Volesky: Well, I got a navy-blue suit with a nice blue Charvet tie. So I think I'm looking pretty presidential. Katie Phang [narration]: To give Tyler another shot at mock trial, coach Laura Rose has put him on a team of 2Ls for the Capitol City Callenge hosted by American University in Washington, DC, and held this year online. Tyler Volesky: There's a lot of schools in it, schools from the east that we saw last semester in the Hofstra Competition. Some pretty big-time schools. So we're going to give them our best, but we're representing the Midwest here in South Dakota. Katie Phang [narration]: The case is set in the fictional city of Washingtonia, and it gives Tyler another workout with medical details. The USD team is defending Dr. Pierre Lagrand. The doctor's crime, he impregnated a patient with his own semen instead of her husband's, which meant their new baby was not a bone marrow match for their older child who was dying of leukemia. [inside courtroom as the team prepares for the competition] Tyler Volesky: I will be doing a cross examination of the state's witness, the mother or father in this case. And then I'll be doing a direct examination of Pierre Lagrand. He's the doctor that's on trial, being charged with second degree murder and fraud. So hopefully, he comes across as human or empathetic, but this guy's a real tough character, very high on himself. And didn't think he did anything wrong. In our practice, they said I have to tone it down a little bit because I'm crossing a mother that just lost her daughter, and they're blaming the doctor. So I have to show some empathy today, and I can't hit her too hard. Damian Vason: Hey, when you get up here, man... God, we look good. Tyler Volesky: Yes, we do. Damian Vason: I guess turn this on. Damian Vason: Good evening, your honor. My name is Damien Vason, and I, along my co-counsel Tyler Volesky, represent the defendant, Dr. Pierre Lagrand in today's case. Katie Phang [narration]: Howard University challenged South Dakota. Howard Student [via Zoom]: We have a few stipulations that we would like to bring to the course attention that is also in the case files. Stipulation- Katie Phang [narration]: The Howard team, it's a formidable opponent. Howard Student [via Zoom]: Miss Duboise, can you tell us a little bit about your daughter, Emma? Katie Phang [narration]: They do the direct exam of the mother in the case. She lost a daughter. Miss Duboise [via Zoom]: Of course. Emma, she was a golden child. Just look at her, the way her hair goes down in her bow. And she brought so much happiness to our lives, but now that she's gone, it's just a feeling of being incomplete. Howard Student [via Zoom]: And why is Emma gone, that you've just stated? Miss Duboise [via Zoom]: She unfortunately passed away when she was eight years old, and she had leukemia and didn't get a transplant that she needed. Howard Student [via Zoom]: How long had Emma suffered- Tyler Volesky: Boy, I got to be soft with her. Tyler Volesky: Hello, Miss Duboise. I know these are difficult circumstances, but I need you to bear with me so we can get through this together to find the truth today. He delivered you a baby. Miss Duboise [via Zoom]: Yes. My beautiful baby boy Marcus. Tyler Volesky: Take your time, Miss Duboise. Now, you blame Dr. Lagrand for this. Is that correct? Miss Duboise [via Zoom]: I'm not blaming. I just bringing light to the situation. We deserve justice. Tyler Volesky: So you're assuming that had Dr. Lagrand used Martin's sperm, Emma would be alive? Miss Duboise [via Zoom]: Just based on what other doctors had told me. Tyler Volesky: I want to talk about you found out Marcus was not a match- Katie Phang [narration]: Soon, the prosecution has them on the edge of their seats with the closing. Howard Student [via Zoom]: Yes, the Duboise family wanted a baby, but they did not want the defendant's baby. They wanted a baby that could help Emma. A baby who could have been born if he had used Martin's sperm. This doctor's deadly disregard is why we are asking you to find the only verdict that the evidence supports and that justice demands. Find Pierre Lagrand guilty of first-degree fraud and second-degree depraved heart murder for the death of eight-year-old Emma Duboise. Thank you. Judge [via Zoom]:: Thank you, prosecution. Does the defense have a closing argument? Tyler Volesky: Yes, your honor. Tyler Volesky: Members of the jury, the Duboise family came to Dr. Lagrand hoping for a miracle. They knew there was no guarantee, but they had a plan. The state just told you that Dr. Lagrand is not a miracle worker. That is correct. He is not a miracle worker. Dr. Lagrand cannot create magic out of dust. What he did by choosing to use his own sperm, was he provided a chance for Emma. A chance that, had he used Martin Duboise's sperm, would've been highly unlikely. But oftentimes, members of the jury, when tragedy comes upon us, when we lose a child, when our dreams and expectations are not met, oftentimes in our grief, in our pain, and our suffering, we look for somebody to blame. We look for a scapegoat because that is the easy route. And today the state has chosen to keep- Katie Phang [narration]: While the 2Ls battle it out at the Capital City Challenge, graduating 3L, Matt Skinner, is cleaning out his desk at the public defender's office. [inside office building with Matt and the staff at Minnehaha Public Defender] Derek Hoffman: This should tide me over. Matt Skinner: Should we do our tradition for the last time? Derek Hoffman: Oh, over to The Source? Matt Skinner: The Source. Derek Hoffman: Yeah. We can go over to The Source. [doors open and close, footsteps in hallway, walking into office] Derek Hoffman: I'll buy coffees for everybody since I made Matthew a partner. It's like a newborn bird who just has these wet, stubbly little feathers, but you think he can fly. Just kick him out of the nest. Derek Hoffman: Kevin wanted a day in the life of... Derek Hoffman: Well, I suppose it's about that time. Huh? I'll keep you posted on that suppression. And then if it does get appealed or whatever, or if it does have a trial, we'll probably peel you in and have you come second chair and cross some more cops. Matt Skinner: All right. Hopefully, I'll be an actual attorney by then. Derek Hoffman: Yeah. Right. All right, man. Well, walk you out here. Matt Skinner: I'm sure I'll stop by. I got to turn this in to Tracy. Derek Hoffman: Yep. The old time sheets? Matt Skinner: Yeah. Last one. Tracy: You still here? Matt Skinner: We did a coffee run, but I'm out. Tracy: Awesome. Matt Skinner: Thank you for the semester and everything. PDO over the past two summers was great. Tracy: Yeah. Matt Skinner: Learned a lot. Tracy: Well, you did a great job today. Matt Skinner: Thank you. Tracy: So we appreciate everything. Matt Skinner: Thanks for everything. I appreciate it. We'll see you later. Derek Hoffman: All right, man. Matt Skinner: So we'll see ya. Derek Hoffman: Yeah. Matt Skinner: I forgot my bag in your... Derek Hoffman: Oh, right on. [inside courtroom after the Capitol City Challenge round] Coach: We going to jump on a Zoom meeting with Rose. Damien: I'm trying to get us on there right now. Coach: Okay. Mattie just told me to let you know. Damien Is she about ready to rip us apart? I thought we did good. Tyler Volesky: Watch, she's going to yell at me. Well, at least this guy's not going to jail because it's not a real case. Katie Phang [narration]: Back on campus, the South Dakota team had good responses from the judges. Judge [via Zoom]: And then, Mr. Volesky. Tyler Volesky: Yes, ma'am. Judge [via Zoom]: You have a really great natural presence. And I don't know if it's improvisation, but it feels like. Especially over Zoom, it's so hard not to feel like everyone's just like, "Hello. My name is Kate Benallen." And I thought you had a really great way of being able to show a natural presence and responding to witnesses in a great way. And great job, and good luck for the rest of the rounds. Thank you. Tyler Volesky: Thank you. Thank you. Katie Phang [narration]: But they are anxiously awaiting feedback from their toughest critic, Coach Rose. Laura Rose [via Zoom]: Okay, wonder twins. I think the round overall went particularly well. I thought both were deadly on cross examination. In terms of overall skills, the one thing that I want to talk about in particular, Tyler, your closing, the line, "Dr. Lagrand is not a miracle worker. He cannot create magic out of dust." That was a beautiful line. That was beautifully, beautifully done. But what I need from you, you've got to get organized, and you've got to pick where you're sticking your ending tomorrow. Tyler Volesky: We'll get it, we'll get it. If I get to go tomorrow, it's going to be even so much better. Laura Rose: Tonight, when you're not going to sleep, because you're not going to sleep no matter what I tell you, perhaps you should pick the path. You got to pick the three things that you're going to spend your time on. And then you got to plot out that last paragraph with that American flag behind you. I should see it start waving in non-existent South Dakota wind. I should see it blowing like it's out on the damn prairie in the middle of the winter, Tyler. Just- Tyler Volesky: I'll get it. I'll get it. I'll get it. Laura Rose: Good. Good. Because you can. Because, guys, there was moments of true brilliance throughout this entire trial for both of you in all of the skills. Okay, look. You walked into the room and you said, "Yeah, we can do this too." And you refused to be denied. The fact that you got complimented on your evidentiary arguments is a big deal at these competitions. Shake off whatever it is that you're beating yourself up about in your head. Because I can see it on both of your faces. Knock it off. Damian: Well, we thought this was going to be a butt chewing, Professor Rose. Laura Rose: Look, you want me to do the part where I chew you out, I can chew you out on [inaudible 00:54:40]. Damian: Go ahead. Laura Rose: You know what the format for objection is. Objection, legal basis. That issue rule analysis conclusion. Damian: Okay. Laura Rose: You know what that is. You spent all last semester doing it in evidence. It's like there's a method to madness, gentlemen. It's like there's a reason that we argue things in class the way that we do. I want you to focus on the high points. I want you to focus on the great things that you did. This is a learning experience. We are learning, and we are growing. You held your own against Howard. You should be proud of that. Laura Rose: Now, what do y'all need to do? You need to go to the hell of bed because you got to hell of around tomorrow against Georgia. But for tonight, you should be proud. You should be proud of the effort, and you should be proud of wow, you pushed. The work that you all put into this is clear. Damian Vason: Thank you. Laura Rose: None of us gets through life solo. Everybody is standing on the shoulders of the people that came before them. Katie Phang [narration]: I caught up with coach Rose a little later that day. Katie Phang: You and I both know anybody can be an advocate, but not everybody can be a trial lawyer. Laura Rose: Fair. You have to learn to be able to spot what's going on in your case, and hear that moment when the jury shifts. And you can feel that moment where they've made a decision about something, and lean into that thing that they've made a decision about because it's working for you. That's advocacy, the ability to adjust and to communicate on this very human level about these very human subjects so that we can continue to speak truth to power and protect democracy. My students always laugh at me because they say that I like to get on a soapbox about that. But it's the truth. The American trial system is the thing that stands in the way of the government and corporations being able to run ram shod over people. Katie Phang [narration]: As Tyler and the team pack up for the day, they realize this may be their last tournament of the year. Tyler Volesky: She wasn't too bad. I knew she was going to come with some criticism there. It was well-deserved, but- Damian: I thought- Tyler Volesky: ... she said we had moments of brilliance. So I'll take it. Damian Vason: Yeah. I'm always going to wonder, always look back and think of what I could have done better, but I'm exhausted right now. I feel like I gave it everything. Tyler Volesky: We're all 2Ls as well. Damian: But even with that, the one thing I think everyone has said is we held our own with a very good team. And Howard basically said, "Hey, we want to go up against USD. The real reason they challenged us was because they thought they could push us around. And I think we showed- Tyler Volesky: Because we're the underdog. Damian Vason: Hey, if you're going to call out the University of South Dakota, we're going to stand our ground. We're going to hold our ground against anybody. Katie Phang [narration]: Coach Rose talks about South Dakota nice. Out on the prairie, folks will play hardball if they have to. Years ago, before leaving for Harvard, the young Ron Volesky decided to go for a bike ride. Ron Volesky: I don't travel as much as I used to. I don't know if I'll ever have the opportunity to put that foot on the sacred soil of the Standing Rock. We'll see. I had the goofy idea of riding my bicycle from here on to the Black Hills. And a good friend of mine, whom I played football and basketball against in high school, we decided we'd get 10-speed bicycles and leave from Huron, South Dakota and ride our bikes to Rapid City . And we did. We made it in four days, and we toured around out there. He got a little tired of biking. So he decided to take a bus home. I decided to ride my bike home. But before I rode my bike home, I decided that I'd go on a little hitchhiking tour. And I did hitchhike up to the reservation, and I visited my mother. And we spent some time together before I came back and left for college. So I did reconnect with my mother in that respect. And that was the first time I also saw my father. 16, I guess 17, when I saw my father, first met him. That's another whole story. We don't have time for all that. [audio teaser for Episode 9] Lajeanne Shelton: Okay. Just repeat after me. It's very simple. Repeat after me. This team- Dillard Team: This team. Lajeanne Shelton: Best team. Dillard Team: Best team. Lajeanne Shelton: This team. Dillard Team: This team. Lajeanne Shelton: Best team. Dillard Team: Best team. Lajeanne Shelton: This team. Dillard Team: This team. Lajeanne Shelton: Strong team. Dillard Team: Strong team. Lajeanne Shelton: This team. Dillard Team: This team. Lajeanne Shelton: Strong team. Dillard Team: Strong team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team. Dillard Team: I love my team. Lajeanne Shelton: I love my team! Dillard Team: I love my team! [cheers and applause] Amaya Ronczyk: You're all making me cry. Katie Phang [narration]: That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Created, produced, and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episode was written by Wendy Nardy. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norvel. Sound design, editing, and mixing by Evan Tyre and Taylor Chicoine. This episode had additional field production by Paul Ebsen and Malia Lukomski. Additional editing by Carl K. Robinson. Archival audio provided by Victoria Wicks and South Dakota Public Broadcasting. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. # END Previous Next

< Back Episode 1 1. Boot Camp for Lawyers Air date: June 7, 2022 The 100-degree heat in San Antonio won't stop St. Mary's University coach AJ Bellido de Luna from drilling his team on the fundamentals. “We’re going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students. These students are here to make a difference,” he says. And for coach Laura Rose at the University of South Dakota, being midwest nice has no place in a mock trial tournament. She lays down the law; “You guys are engaged in a highly competitive law school sport.” Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: St. Mary's University Law School University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law Preet Bharara Trial Team Cen tral Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com . Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . Transcript Katie Phang (narration): Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Rhodes College Trial Team: Blood makes the glass grow. Kill, kill, kill. Blood makes the glass grow. Kill, kill, Kill. Blood makes the glass grow. Kill, kill, kill! Murder on three, murder on three, one, two, three! Murder! Karen Crawford: Well, I just want to tell the team that, we're new to this, but we are true to this. Because you went through the competition and if you weren't any good at all, you wouldn't be here. We may not be the best, but we're good enough to get on this team. So, let's do what we got to do. The whole goal after this is when you go into the courtroom, there's somebody depending on you to advocate for them. So, let's learn it now. Because their life could be on their line. Their finances could be on their line. Their family could be on their line. This is fun. This is great. But we have to look out for our clients. We don't even know who they are, but they're waiting for us. They're waiting for us. Announcer. Our first team with six wins, with a CS of 16-½ and PD of 39, team 1216. Dillard University Trial Team: Katie Phang (host): You're listening to the sounds of the next generation of American lawyers. Caitlin Douglas: Oh, Lord Jesus. Katie Phang (host): This is Class Action, a year long journey inside the hyper-competitive world of law school mock trial. We found three schools with amazing stories to tell, starting with St. Mary's University in San Antonio, where we follow one team on their dramatic trip to the top. Jasmin Olguin: We got beat up bad, until the point we're like, oh, it can't get any worse. Until it did. And then it did again. And then we were just like, you know what? Let's do this, we know what we need to fix. We got this, let's believe in ourselves and it's been good. Katie Phang (host): The University of South Dakota, where a new coach is turning around a program with students who are guilty of being too nice in the courtroom. Dylan Ramstad-Skoyles: The reports of this fighter, that there was blood everywhere, that everybody was bleeding. Why isn't there blood in the front passenger seat? Why isn't the victim's blood other places in the car? Katie Phang (host): And from deep in the heart of Brooklyn, an all-female team from Brooklyn Law fights the Ivy league champions. Ellie Sands: What just happened? Kathrine Boyko: Anjani you got the best opening statement! Ellie Sands: We just all tackled her to the ground and we're crying and screaming and so happy. Katie Phang (host): And to get an idea of the future of mock trial, we meet students from the undergraduate pre-law program at Dillard University. It's a team that's been forced to come together after Hurricane Ida lays waste to their campus. Lajeanne Shelton: This sport will humble you so quick, in the best way possible. It will really let you know; you need to buckle down and do what you have to do. It will really show you your potential. And it will also show you the places that you lack. Katie Phang (host): I'm Katie Phang, this is Class Action. [music; mid-temp hip-hop positive triumphant groove] Some people say jury trials, they're going away and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Personally, I think it's more than a shame, I think it's a crisis, a crisis for our democracy. Because if you've ever had to go trial and you've had a lousy trial lawyer, it's a real crisis for you, but there may be hope on the horizon. Jasmin Olguin: Ever since I was a kid, I wanted to be a lawyer, just always wanted to do that, and it was kind of like law or nothing. I'm sure it could be good at something else, but this is my heart. Matt Skinner: I would say what appeals to me is the overarching justice system. And the fact that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but in society, that is not the case. In society is if you see a news report that so, and so was involved in a robbery, they did it. They did the robbery and I think that's unfair. Amaya Ronczyk: Okay. Here's one paragraph I can read, that same day I signed up for something called mock trial, thinking I would learn a few things about speaking effectively, I began sitting in the back of practices and watching the student lawyers argue their cases. My coaches didn't let that fly for too long. They insisted I lead strategy discussions and present every side of the case until I knew the facts of the story like it were my own. Anjani Shah: I have brown skin. I am Indian. I am not well represented in a courtroom setting, typically. I'm not who you see on a courtroom drama. For example, the other day I was talking to my friend and I was like, yeah, I did this moot court thing. And he said, oh, like in those courtroom dramas, do you watch them for inspiration? And I honestly, I said, no, because those people don't look like me. They don't have my style. They're white males generally. And for the most part, like, I'm building this myself, whatever comes out in a courtroom is because I built that persona. Jasmin Olguin: Every occupation's important in its own way. But I feel like in this type, especially criminal law, you're with somebody at the worst time of their life. Amaya Ronczyk: Every inch of my body felt uncomfortable to the point where I felt like quitting. But something about the sport made me keep coming back. I trained my mind and my tongue so substantially that the courtroom became the place where I felt the most comfortable. I learned that being a litigator isn't about the objections you make or how smart you sound. It's about your body language, the way your voice bends and the words you use. Most importantly, it's about the way you connect with people and the truth you're able to uncover. It's about the stories you tell. Katie Phang (host): This is episode one, Boot Camp for Lawyers. AJ Bellido de Luna: You all ready for me? Announcer: And now introducing, Assistant Dean AJ Bellido de Luna. AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh my God. Stand up, stand up. Stand up. No, stand up, stand up, stand up, stand up! Pound on the table. Pound on the table. Oh my God. Oh my God. Woo. I'm the Dean of advocacy. So, believe it or not, we already did some advocacy here today. None of you wanted to stand up on whoop, whoop and pound on the table. But I got you to do that. That to me is the world of advocacy. Getting people to do something that they don't want to do on their own. For me, it's in the courtroom. I want the judge to do what I want the judge to do. I want the jury to do what I want the jury to do. And I need to train you to do what I do. That's my world. Close your eyes for a second. Last night, you thought about your first day in law school. There was a picture in your head. How many of you imagined yourself in front of a jury or a judge making an argument? It's okay to dream. And here we're going to help you fulfill that dream, for each and every one of you that want it. Some of you are here because something happened in your life. Some of you have been wronged, or a family member has been wronged. Some of you have been victims, and that's why you're here, because you want to make a difference. It's just a small number of people that can control our liberty to make sure that it is maintained. You have a unique responsibility. We're doing really important stuff here, and I need you to keep going. The national trial team, we practice going to trial. As a member of the national trial team before you graduate, you will have no less than 70 trials under your belt, practicing in front of judges and law practitioners. I invite you to be a member of the national trial team. Your success depends on each other. Put your arm around each other, take care of each other and good luck and law school. Incoming 1Ls, did you eat breakfast? Student: Yeah, we have. AJ Bellido de Luna: I was going to say, get some breakfast tacos. Katie Phang (host): St. Mary's University sits on a flat piece of land in the west side of San Antonio. AJ Bellido de Luna: So give you a lay of the land here. Raba is the original law school. Now it's just offices. Katie Phang (host): St. Mary's is the first Catholic university in Texas, founded by the brothers of the Society of Mary in 1852. AJ Bellido de Luna: That's the law school library. That's the administration building, this is the main classroom building. Katie Phang (host): Just seven years after Texas became a state. AJ Bellido de Luna: So, you have the rest of the university, but we are right here in our own little corner. When you take a look around, what's going to set us apart when you go to these other schools, our student population has a huge Hispanic, Latino population. We're probably going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students, which is really important to us that we have that opportunity that other schools don't have. It's fantastic. Jasmin Olguin: [Spanish 00:10:57]. Thank you, mama. AJ Bellido de Luna: So our school has an oath that every student takes when they first come in, you take a bunch of oaths as a lawyer. So we figure we might as well start one here. Announcer: All in unison, say your names and follow me. I -- Dean Patricia Roberts: The things that the students are pledging to honesty, morality, integrity, trustworthiness, honor. These are the things that I expect and we demand from all of our students, but we want them to make that commitment from their first day on campus and saying this pledge does just that. Announcer: The diligence study law, always actively and honest -- Dean Patricia Roberts: So I'm looking at that pledge, I have it on a bulletin board above my desk. I, Patricia Roberts do solemnly pledge that I will engage in the diligent study of law, always acting in an honest, moral and professional manner. I will be guided by the spirit of hospitality, collaboration, mutual support and scholarship, which are the ideals of a Marianists university. And I will be trustworthy, honorable and professional in all aspects of my life. Student crowd: Be trustworthy, honorable, and professional. Announcer: In all aspects of my life. Student crowd: In all aspects of my life. Announcer: Congratulations to you. Thank you so much. Katie Phang (host): So do you go by AJ Bellido de Luna? Or are you just AJ Bellido? What's- AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh no, never Bellido, never de Luna, never Luna, never de. Believe it or not, some people use that. The last name is Bellido de Luna it's a double L. So you had the right accent- Katie Phang (host): [Spanish 00:13:18]. AJ Bellido de Luna: Cubano. Katie Phang (host): No. AJ Bellido de Luna: [Spanish 00:13:21] In 1962- Katie Phang (host): [Spanish 00:13:29]. AJ Bellido de Luna: [Spanish 00:13:31] in California. Katie Phang (host): Ah, okay. As soon as I heard about this particular podcast, I law geeked out trial ad was a big part of my law school experience. It was instrumental in leading me to not go to big law and to go to the grind of big law, and I went to be a prosecutor. I attribute that love and that pat passion for trial and advocacy, which like true trial advocacy because of the mock trials and the litigation skills program. So yes, so you and I are like-minded when it comes to this. There is this old saying I'm going to butcher it, but I do like to live by this kind of old adage, it was a Judy Garland quote about, the best thing is to basically be yourself. That being said, though, if you could build the perfect trial team student member, what would that trial team member be? AJ Bellido de Luna: I never thought about that, to be honest. And I think the reason why I've never thought about that is because I truly believe that I am not trying to make somebody into something. More so what I want is I want to meet the students where they are and to help build their skills and their abilities so that they can be the best lawyer they can possibly be. Katie Phang (host): Earning a coveted spot on the trial team at St. Mary's is not automatic. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey, 3Ls come here. 3Ls. Katie Phang (host): Tryouts are held in the spring for second- and third-year law student only. And just to get this out of the way, second year law students, they're called 2Ls. Third year students they're known as 3Ls. AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. Remember how nervous you guys were. This is like their passage into here. We're here to help them, do not give them advanced lessons. There are two people here that are here on a look see, the first one is- Katie Phang (host): In early August, the 2Ls enroll in a trial advocacy class taught by AJ, and after five o'clock they brave the heat for an intensive one-week boot camp. Where they're going to be drilled on everything from how to stand, where to stand, how to talk when to shut up, and all of the bed rock procedures operating inside of a courtroom. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey, what are you doing out here? Student: I'm helping. AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh, good for you. Student: I'm going to be a team player. AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh, look at you. Always a team player. Student: I grew up playing team sports, it's in my nature. AJ Bellido de Luna: I got in trouble for talking too long. The Dean told me to shut up. Emily Parker: Happy you can make it today. Katie Phang (host): Emily Parker is one of a handful of 3Ls who are earning extra credit for coaching at the bootcamp. Emily Parker: Our boot camp, which is basically a crash course on evidence, on the trial procedure, cross examinations. And just getting comfortable with learning at a fast pace, but also just the very basic rules for how a trial operates and what you need to know and the nuts and bolts. So then when they start their trial advocacy skills class in the fall, they'll be ready to go. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey, welcome to the first day. Here's what I want you to do. Unless you're Andy, Emily or Jess, I want you to go down there, I'm going to go address them. And I want you to work with them. And as soon as you believe somebody is ready for the test, they could come up to me or Deb, we're going to be at the top of the steps. They'll be at the bottom of the steps. They'll recite. They'll be allowed in. If they don't pass, we're going to send them back, you guys need to them and work with them. Have them recite it for you again. All right, let's go address them and get them to work. Abby Efron: My name's Abby, I don't want to speak for anyone else. But when he said boot camp, all I was imagining is, in the Texas weather, like out in the grass, doing laps and yelling the rules of the evidence. So anything was better than that. Mariela Encinas: Hi, I'm Mariela Encinas I was a bit intimidated, but definitely just from tryouts, there was still that level of scariness, not really knowing, what his personality was, how he was going to approach this whole thing AJ Bellido de Luna: A couple minutes. Let’s get to work. Student: It's Jared's birthday today, if you want- AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh my God. Jared's birthday. How old are you? Jared Hall: 23. AJ Bellido de Luna: He's 23. Wow. Happy birthday. Jared Hall: Thank you. AJ Bellido de Luna: That's awesome. Did you bring cake? Jared Hall: I didn't, I was hoping you would. AJ Bellido de Luna: I believe that you have to bring cake when it's your birthday. Chocolate with chocolate frosting, you all need to know the rules. All right. Get to work. See you in a couple minutes. Genesis Salinas: A declarant is a person who makes a statement and hearsay is a statement that the declarant makes while not testifying in the current trial or hearing. And the party offers it into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Deb Junek: The rule number for hearsay. What's the rule number? Genesis Salinas: Oh 801. Deb Junek: And what's the rule number for relevance? Genesis Salinas: 401, I'm sorry. Deb Junek: No, that's right. That's fine. No, you're fine. You're in. AJ Bellido de Luna: So in order to make phase two of the team, they had to memorize, I don't know, like 12 rules of evidence. They were given two hours to write down these rules, word for word. They were graded. You had to get an 80% or better on the test in order to stay on the team. So they've already memorized them for writing. When now they have to come in and give it to me verbally. Hailey Nikkels: What is the definition of relevance? Mariela Encinas: Evidence is relevant, if A, it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence and B the fact of consequence and determinative action. Hailey Nikkels: I love it. Okay, what is the definition of hearsay? Mariela Encinas: Hearsay is a statement other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Hailey Nikkels: Go! Good job. What is the definition of relevance? Vanessa Skillman: Evidence is relevant, if it has any tendency to make the fact more less- Katie Phang (host): Why, for those people that are listening and wondering and scratch in their head, there's dozens of rules of evidence in the federal rules of evidence. AJ Bellido de Luna: That's right. Katie Phang (host): Why those specifically, and, if I'm able to recite it back to you, why is that some type of threshold success for me to be able to get my foot on the door, to even be considered, to be on the St. Mary's team? AJ Bellido de Luna: It's a little bit of effort to memorize that. So they're looking up at you and they have to recite these two rules to walk past me, to come up the stairs and walk past me. So there's an elevation that happens, there's a feeling inside it's part psychological. There's a whole lot of reasons for it, but it's all part of that process of if you don't care, if you're not willing to do just this little bit, I don't have time for you. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey, state your name for the record. Cole Davila: It's Cole Davilla. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right, Cole, what is the definition of hearsay? Cole Davila: Hearsay. Hearsay is a statement other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered evidence for the truth of the matter asserted. Cole Davila: This is my first year on the trial team. I did moot court prior to this. So this kind of activity, it's very difficult to just really jump into because you got to know a lot of basic tenets of law that we've kind of only just touched on. AJ Bellido de Luna: Three years ago, I was in your English class and I got B. I was involved in a car accident today, is my English class B relevant? Cole Davila: No, it is not. AJ Bellido de Luna: Why not? Cole Davila: Because it has no bearing on the fact at hand or the action which is car accident. AJ Bellido de Luna: Welcome aboard Cole. Hailey Nikkels: Okay. Find a second person, it looks like Jasmine is available. AJ Bellido de Luna: State your name for the record. Karen Crawford: My name is Karen Crawford. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right, Ms. Crawford. You and I are walking down the street, we just had a cup of coffee. All of a sudden we hear crash and someone yells out, holy cow, that guy went through a red light, is that hearsay? Karen Crawford: The person who said it? No, because he saw it with his eyes. AJ Bellido de Luna: Is it an out of court statement? Karen Crawford: It's out of court. AJ Bellido de Luna: Is it being offered for the truth? Karen Crawford: Not at that moment. AJ Bellido de Luna: Go back. Karen Crawford: Hanging on the street. AJ Bellido de Luna: Go back. Karen Crawford: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Hailey Nikkels: Okay. Karen, let's do it. Student: You're getting tripped up on hearsay. AJ Bellido de Luna: As you go through this process, I really want you to think about it this way. The rules of evidence are not to keep evidence out. The rules of evidence are to guide you on how you bring evidence in. It tells you how to get it in. If you look at it that way, it becomes a lot easier than it's this barrier. It's not a barrier, it's a welcoming mat. We're going to have a really, really busy week and we're going to be out here for most of it. I brought a cooler. Andy brought the ice, drank often drink a lot, stay hydrated. We should hit 102 tomorrow. Leigh Ann Greenberg: Offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. AJ Bellido de Luna: Is this statement made out of court? Karen Crawford: Yes. The statement is made out of court, it's on the street. AJ Bellido de Luna: So then that statement is... Karen Crawford: Hearsay. AJ Bellido de Luna: Because it is being offered... Speaker 3: To prove the truth of the matter asserted. AJ Bellido de Luna: So therefore it is... Karen Crawford: Hearsay. AJ Bellido de Luna: Thank you. Come on in. Is that Everybody's? Hailey Nikkels: That's it. AJ Bellido de Luna: Awesome. All right, come on in. Everybody. Let's get to work. Y'all made it. That was really easy. Wasn't it? Wasn't that easy? Give yourselves applause. Come on. Now, you know the definitions, now you need to learn how to use them. Our first assignment is to get to know each other. Team up with somebody. Noone's going to ask a single question. When I say ones go for three minutes without stopping, I need you to tell a story about yourself to the other person. The person may not ask you a single question. You will just tell the story about you. I hope to God you came here with a piece of paper and a pencil, because while the other person is talking, you're taking notes. And you may not stop talking until I say stop. Let's get this table combined with this table, and that table combined with that table. Student: You need one over here. Jared Hall: Today, I'm going to tell you a story about how my house burned down. True story, from when I was seven. One night I went to sleep, it was a Sunday night. We didn't have school the next day, so my older brother was awake. And he awoke to a bang, glass crashing everywhere. He thought somebody- AJ Bellido de Luna: I used to teach at Maryland. I used to do this when I was at Maryland. And I know that at Maryland, I would teach something one time and I was done with it. It was over. I didn't have to do it again, but that's not where I am. Raven Pena: And I learned in addition to that, like whatever we say could really get us in jail, didn't matter what we were saying. AJ Bellido de Luna: I'm not knocking my kids; I'm just saying that they need a different teacher. They need me to be a different teacher. Genesis Salinas: 30 seconds later, a jellyfish runner on my back. So I tried to take off a jellyfish- AJ Bellido de Luna: I'm not getting kids that even know what trial advocacy is, or some of them may have had an experience in high school. But they weren't on a national champion high school team. AJ Bellido de Luna: Stop talking. Stop laughing. No, I'm just kidding. Leave everything behind. Just bring your chair and put them in this box. So when you come up here, I want you to say your name and the person you're introducing and tell us about that person. I'll take volunteers. So yeah. I love that. Let's get it over with. Who you are, who you're introducing, tell us their story. Hey, can someone take notes/ take notes of these stories? Mariela Encinas: I'll go first. Yeah. So hi, my name is Mariela Encinas and this was my partner, Raven Pena. And she told me the story of why law school, which I'm sure all of us have been asked before. So she went ahead and started off with how she was concerned for people. She had a concern in her heart for people specifically... Mariela Encinas: I just moved here for law school. So it was a little rough, my first year. I won't lie, moving, I've never lived away from family. So I have no lawyers in the family, but I was a legal secretary and a paralegal prior to coming to law school. Law school was always the plan, just kind of took a little while getting there. Mariela Encinas: So she went ahead and started to do a lot of activist work. She became an activist, but she quickly learned that the FBI would get involved in a lot of things. And she learned the whole culture of security and how any little thing that she said, or her friend said ultimately was tracked and ultimately could lead to a lot... I Mariela Encinas: I didn't want to be the behind-the-scenes person. Everything that staff does is so important, but I want to be the advocate in the courtroom. And it was just through watching those other advocates that I was just like, yeah, that's what I need to do. My specific interest is in Special Victims Unit, sex crimes, crimes against children, domestic violence. That's where I really found a passion for helping the victims. Mariela Encinas: And even though her road took different law school was always kind of the second option, and that's where she's at now. Preet Bharara: There's a lot of power in a legal degree. Katie Phang (host): I asked my good friend Preet Bharara the former US attorney for the legendary Southern District of New York to join us on this journey. Preet Bharara: Individuals have power, generally they have their voice, they can protest. They can run for office. There's lots of things you can do. But I think there has been an appreciation as our democracy in my view has been under attack from a lot of different places over the last number of years. That's not a bad thing to have a law degree. And have the privilege of access to a court, to readdress grievances, and equalize the playing field for people who don't have access to justice. AJ Bellido de Luna: Is that six o'clock? Hailey Nikkels: Yeah, 601. AJ Bellido de Luna: Let's everyone take a moment to reflect as the St. Mary's bell's ring. How long do they go? Katie Phang (host): The students pack up and head for their cars. AJ sits down at an old picnic table with a couple of coaches, Deb Junek and Misty Deatherage. AJ Bellido de Luna: The 2Ls in their presentations, was there anyone there that stood out to you? Misty Deatherage: The very first one, it's hard to go first, but she knocked it out of the park. AJ Bellido de Luna: Why did she impressions- Misty Deatherage: It was very animated. Her speech was animated. It had motion. It had tone and variance. It was good. Deb Junek: And it was organized. It made sense. We have several that need to, we're going to have them sit on their hands. We have a lot of hand movement. AJ Bellido de Luna: Are you shocked that the deer in the headlights look with about two thirds of them? Deb Junek: A little. I don't remember that from last year. Misty Deatherage: Year. My concern is, is that a COVID thing? We're back in person, meeting people in person again, is it a holdover from having done everything last year on Zoom and that type of thing? AJ Bellido de Luna: This is their first time live, this class, they've never been live. That's a really good observation. So we should ease them in a little bit, rather than hitting them hard. I was stand by hitting them hard tomorrow, but no. Deb Junek: You're going to be easy on them? AJ Bellido de Luna: No. Misty Deatherage: AJ doesn't do easy. AJ Bellido de Luna: You know better, but maybe easy for AJ, no... [music; driving percussive, mid-tempo] Katie Phang (host): To get the bigger picture of the mock trial scene, I reached out to Joe Lester. When Joe's not overseeing the trial ad program at American University, he runs the go-to website called Trial Team Central. Joe Lester: Trial Team Central, we keep track of all the law school trial competitions, the results. We've grown, it was first just who won. And now it's, who won and who's playing. Katie Phang (host): And we also talked with Joe's colleague, Adam Shlahet from Fordham university. Adam's created this ranking system to measure the top mock trial programs across the country. Adam Shlahet: You get three points, if you win a competition. Two points, if you come in second. And one point, if you make the semifinals. So then I just started allocating points and counting them up. Katie Phang (host): So Adam and Joe, I'm the new kid on the block, but I have had the most amazing ride getting to know these coaches and some of the competitors. So I've met some pretty spectacular kids. They have reaffirmed my belief that the children are going to save the world because they are so smart and so self-aware. And I would like to think having been a trial ad geek myself in law school, that being a part of these teams has been a huge part of it. Adam Shlahet: Yeah. One of the other critiques that we hear, especially from people who aren't trial lawyers, is that there are fewer and fewer trials happening in the country. The jury trial is vanishing. So why is this so important? And I think that because the jury trial is becoming more rare, that makes it more important that the students get the training in law school. Because the days of the young lawyer trying a 100 cases before they're 30, it doesn't happen. It just does not happen, especially at big firms and high stakes litigation. I do some training for law firms and these are folks who've been at the law firm for many, many, many, many years and they've never even been close to a trial. Joe Lester: If you ever watch a baseball game and you watch someone throw the ball from third base to first base, most people can't even throw a ball that far, it's a long way and they do it like it's no big deal. And I think they think of trial work and the practice of law as something that's just easy and no big deal. And that's where the trial training that we give gives these students, such a leg up on their competition, on their classmates, because it is not something you can just walk in and do. It is not monkey see, monkey do, I can mimic it and I can take care of it. It takes a lot of training and understanding to know exactly what you're doing and how to do it, or you'll never be able to hit a curve ball. Adam Shlahet: So they need this kind of training because they don't have the luxury of learning on the backs of their clients. Because at the end of the day, trials are still happening. Even if it's to a lesser degree, they are still happening and that's the cloud looming over all litigation. And if you take away that ability, then you're really losing a major tactical advantage. AJ Bellido de Luna: So you preface what it is that you're trying to do. You mark it, you show it, you ask to approach, they validate its existence. You publish. That's kind of the gist of the way this works. Now you all do have a document... Katie Phang (host): Let's be frank, AJ, you want to create the St. Mary's Law national team that's going to be competitively good. And you talk about that pressure cooker of these students. They've got their academic rigor and their academic demands. I think it's really relevant because a lot of criticism about law school has been what's the real-world practical benefit of going to law school. What are you learning in the classroom versus maybe being on one of these trial teams? It is competitive to get on the team, I presume it's competitive to stay on the team. AJ Bellido de Luna: It's very competitive to get on the team. It's very competitive to stay on the team. The pressure is high when you get on the team and a lot of people don't make it. They withdraw on their own or they withdraw after a conversation. My number one goal is not to win championships. It is not. Don't get me wrong, I really love winning. I'm very competitive. If we were to break out a checker board right now, I'm going to play and play and play and play until I figure out how to beat you. Katie Phang (host): I like that you're already going, knowing that I'm beating you at the beginning. AJ Bellido de Luna: There's no doubt about that, but you will get angry at me because I will make you keep going until I win, until I figure out what you're doing and I am not. So I want to impart that competitive spirit on my students, but it is not, not my goal. I grew up really, really poor, Katie. I mean, really poor. I had parents who left Cuba to come here to this country. They left on one of the Freedom boats, like many other Cubans that came to this country, fleeing a communist Cuba, a Fidel Castro rule. And they came here with nothing, cloth on their backs. You don't know it by list listening to me because you don't hear me as a Latino. Katie Phang (host): Oh, but I heard it right there, Latino. AJ Bellido de Luna: I have seen how some people are treated versus other people. And I've been poor as an adult and I've worked through it until I got to this stage in my life where I'm not poor. I'm not rich, but I'm not poor. What I know is this. Is that there are a lot of people out there who are not getting the representation that they need. And I see day in and day out how people do not represent people correctly. They ask dumb questions. They ask questions that forward or advance the theory of the case for the other side, rather than their side. Jared Hall: I come from a town of about 3000 people, everything I've done in my life, people say, well, where is that from? Had somebody tell me this week that I sound like cornbread, whatever that means. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But, that's my mentality, my whole life. My dad's not a lawyer or a doctor. My dad's a farmer. And the thing is for me, I'm out to prove to the world that I can do it and I'm going to do it. Karen Crawford: Hi. My name is Karen Fraser Crawford and the first day was quite intimidating, very intimidating. I had studied those things for weeks and it seems like it just blanked out. Maria Jaimes: Hello. I'm Maria Jaimes. So the first day I think we were all like maybe texting each other, a bunch of us, what's going to happen? What's going on? And we didn't know what to expect, honestly. And I remember telling some of our friends, I feel like throwing up. I don't know, I'm so nervous and we get here and it's like kind of a relief once the first day is over because we're like, okay, it's going to be hard, but we can do this. Katie Phang (host): A little over a thousand miles due north, another trial team, the university of South Dakota is lugging their law books back to campus. Student: Good morning. Laura Rose: Good morning. How you all doing this morning? How was your night, last night? Student: It was good. Laura Rose: We're downstairs in the courtroom today, let's go. Ian: Oh no, please. Laura Rose: Next time Ian, emails are great way to communicate when we're not going to be playing. Ian: The knowledge was not there prior to the email that should- Laura Rose: Got it. Mr. Petereit, Mr. Houdek, how are we doing? Ian: Let's go. Laura Rose: Come on in. Oh, living the dream how you doing, sir? [crosstalk 00:39:35]. So these are the things that we're going to cover tonight. Things that you need to know about law school mock trial. We're going to talk briefly through preliminary matters, which is the first thing that you're going to say when you're doing one of these competitions, we're going to talk about the use of evidence at the competition, what you need to know. And what people on this side of the room already know. In six weeks, we take a fact pattern that would normally take two to three years to come to trial and we take to trial. And they're intense, some of our fact patterns were as long as 200 pages last year, some of them were as short as 65. The thing that you need to know most of all, you guys are engaged in a highly come competitive law school sport. We have gotten to the point through the work of the people who have been on trial team before you since I have been here, where we are now regularly getting invited and accepted to top tier competitions. We are regularly competing against top 20 advocacy schools. I don't care that they're top 20 advocacy schools. They are not any better than any of you. They're not any smarter than any of you. They don't have any advantage over any of you other than the fact that they have a preexisting template. We're making all of that here together because we're building our team together. We're currently ranked number 90 in the country for trial advocacy. That means we are in the top half already. Our goal is to increase that ranking. How do we do that? By up and showing out at competitions right now. We're taking over with ethical zealous trial advocacy, and we're showing them that it doesn't matter what part of the country that you're from or how much money you've spent on all of your equipment we're coming for you. And it's not going to be fun for you when that happens. When you walk into that Zoom room, when you log in, I don't care if you're going against Baylor, I don't care if you're going against Temple. I don't care what school it is that you're competing against. It's four other law students. You have every potential to beat them just as much as they have the potential to be. You. It's just a question of who's going to do the work at the end of the day guys, that's really all there is to it. Katie Phang (host): So I come to you at the end of my one L year. I hear the siren song of working with coach Laura Rose, being on this amazing team. Walk me through what I should expect as that first semester 2L, in those beginning days of that semester with you, what's that going to look like for me? Laura Rose: The first thing that's going to happen is you're going to be absolutely terrified, because we're going to sit you down at bootcamp and we're going to tell you just how this goes. And in the course of that, you're going to have this moment of, oh my gosh, can I actually do this and law school on top of it? It's like drinking water through a fire hose on extra pressure, when you join to trial team on top of law school. We already know that law school is drinking through a fire hose. Now let's take it up to 11 by adding trial team on top of it. So you're going to get a faster, more intense evidence education than what's going on. Laura Rose: Questions about cross right now? Yes sir. Matt Skinner: Is it something that I learned in trial tech? I think it's important to focus on the negative space, that's there about what they didn't do versus what they did wrong. Laura Rose: And that's going to be particularly important when we talk about this fake environment of the trial team competition, right? Because you're going up against other law students. So they're going to be trying to play chess against you the entire time that you're ready to go. Your job is to be more fluent in their witness than they are. And then to not let them get away with an anything... Laura Rose: Everybody likes to say that I'm a little carbon copy of dad with just enough of my mother thrown in to be interesting. My father is Charles Harris Rose III. He ran Stetson University’s Trial Law Advocacy program for 14 years. During that time, when he was in charge, they were always number one. Number one in the nation for trial ad. He is a giant of a personality and a titan within the industry. One of the people who now all of us who are currently in the job of coaching and teaching rely upon for his wisdom and what he did, but there is no understanding the impact that he had on the profession in particular, but he also casts a giant shadow. Laura Rose: Listening to what they say is absolutely everything in cross examination. You have to be engaged, and in the moment. If you're not paying attention, number one, they may give you a nonverbal answer mm-hmm or mm-mm. You need to go back. That's a yes, that's a no, because otherwise it's not on the record. And then as you all know, one of the key jobs of the trial attorney is to protect the appellate record. You have to make sure that it's on there because otherwise you're robbing ourself of the argument. Technically you are not permitted to argue any of that in your closing argument because it's not on the record. But listening to what they say provides fertile ground for further cross examination and further ground for embarrassment, for them on those key facts. Toss out something that we haven't talked about yet, about cross examination. This is the part where the student interacts with the instructor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Student: You have to know their prior personal character. Katie Phang (host): Speak frankly with me, Laura, are you trying to build something that's going to exceed that legacy? Are you trying to outshine it? Are you trying to match it? Does that create any metrics for you internally for how you're trying to build and continue to grow and enhance the program you have at South Dakota? Laura Rose: I'm going to say no. And, and here's why I'm going to say no. I take inspiration from everything that my father has ever done. We have had a friendly competition going my entire life. When I took the SAT had to brag to him that I got a better SAT score than he did. When I took the LSAT, I had to do the same thing. It's that kind of way that he's nurtured my own inherent competitive spirit to allow me to grow into my own person. And now I'm at the point, where could I try and build what Dad built? Sure. Good advocacy is about looking at the facts of your case, looking at the law and coming up with a story that embraces a legal theme, a factual theme, and a moral theme that calls to justice and uses our trial system for what it's for, which is speaking truth to power. That's what I want to build. I want to come back to, this is so important to American democracy that everywhere should have this level of education, and everywhere should get this level of exposure. And we have one lawyer for every 1200 citizens in our state. So we are a small Bar, which means that my students, when they graduate and they go out to practice, they need to be able to do a little bit of everything. They need to be a true Main Street lawyer in the way that the rest of the country, maybe doesn't necessarily have. The South Dakotan walking down the street who gets busted for a DUI or a disorderly conduct, deserves somebody who can go in and advocate at the same level as somebody who's in New York or who's in California or who's anywhere else. We need to start recognizing that there are things in the middle of the country that are incredibly valuable. There might be that time when some good Midwestern common sense approach to something is going to actually do you a lot of favors... Laura Rose: So with that, why don't we go ahead and start wrapping things up for tonight. I expect to see you all back here, bright and early tomorrow morning. Battle of the Experts people, can I talk to you up front real quick? Other than that y'all are good to go. Please take pizza with you. Student 1: Whatever tournament are you guys are going, what's it called? Student 2: Buffalo Niagara. Student 1: It's not Battle of the Experts. Preet Bharara: Look, law is about rules. I believe in rules, but more important than rules, it is something that is based on principles and values. And those are values of equal justice and fairness of process and everything about that is fascinating to me. And I love the idea that it's also about truth finding. And all the mechanisms that you use, not only to get justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth comes out. And I've always thought of it as a noble pursuit. Tony Serra: I tell the young lawyers, it's a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as a calling. Katie Phang (host): Tony Serra is a self-described radical lawyer. He even took a vow of poverty in the 1960s. He's represented clients such as the Black Panthers and the Hells Angels. At 87, though, he is still practicing law and continues to send fear and loathing into the hearts of judges across the country. Tony Serra: It's a fabulous mission that you're going to embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission. If you regard it as a job and that you're going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're feeding into the status quo. But is that really you? Is that really why you went to law school? Is that what you really want to do? Or do you want to improve our social and political securities? AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. I'm getting started. We're getting started. How's everybody doing? I want to do two things real quick before we really get started. The first is that, while we're in law school, some things happen. It's just part of life. And we all need each other to get through of these hard times. Christian Ramone's father died. It was not expected, which is why he's not here right now. He's still going to try to be here tomorrow. They're burying his father today. So if you know him, and you if don't know him, maybe we can get a card, a note, a reach out to him to let him know that he's not alone. That other people are thinking of him in his time of need. And if it's within you, something that you do, maybe say a prayer for him and his family. And there's no doubt that these kinds of events are going to happen to more of us. My mother passed away this year just a few months ago. And people rallied around me and we've had things that happen. We've had babies that were born and we rallied around each other for babies, the good stuff, and the bad stuff. As we start to get to know each other better and better, it'll become easier and easier to rally around. But sometimes things happen before we've had that gelling effect. So who did not see the video on cross examination? Now there's no direct happened yet, why are we going directly to a cross? We're going to work on directs, directs are harder. Crosses are easier. Why are crosses easier? Someone that watch the video, tell me why crosses are easier, Abby. Abby Efron: Because you're getting yes and no answers. Hopefully, yes, and you're telling the story. AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah. What do I call that? Abby Efron: The yes train. AJ Bellido de Luna: The Yes Train the yes, choo choo. That's the money train. You get someone to say, yes, that's the money train. That's what you want. You want a runaway witness so you can slap them around and get them on your yes. Train. How do we control the witness? Abby Efron: You control the questions you're asking them. AJ Bellido de Luna: And what kind of questions are we asking? Student: Leading question. AJ Bellido de Luna: And leading question is what? Student: One fact equal one question. AJ Bellido de Luna: What is it? Student: One fact equals one question. AJ Bellido de Luna: One fact, single fact questions. What is the one thing that I want to make sure that I get out of every witness that I cross-examined, every witness? Students: Story? AJ Bellido de Luna: Which story? Students: Your story. AJ Bellido de Luna: My story, which is my... Students: Client story. AJ Bellido de Luna: Which is my theory of the case. How do I get the theory of my case through that witness? Bring your chairs, leave your notes, leave your pens. Just yourselves. You can bring water. So I want my first chair here. Now, this is your first time through. And we expect you're going to make more mistakes than normal. It's okay. This is where you're allowed to make mistakes. This is our first step in cross examinations. You're going to make mistakes. We don't start yelling until the second time. The first time, it's easy. Jared Hall: Officer Centapalo, I want to take you back to when you were interviewing Bobby C. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey, where are you from? Jared Hall: North Carolina. AJ Bellido de Luna: Where, in North Carolina? Jared Hall: Eastern North Carolina. AJ Bellido de Luna: What city? Jared Hall: Snow Hill. AJ Bellido de Luna: And what's in Snow Hill? Jared Hall: Nothing. AJ Bellido de Luna: There's nothing there. Jared Hall: Farms. AJ Bellido de Luna: Farm. Are you on a farm right now? Jared Hall: No. AJ Bellido de Luna: Where are you? What are we mimicking here? Jared Hall: Trial. AJ Bellido de Luna: And a trial is in what kind of room? Jared Hall: Courtroom. AJ Bellido de Luna: Is that on a farm? Jared Hall: No. AJ Bellido de Luna: You're not on a farm, you got to get sick. Right now you're a little mad at me. Aren't you? Yeah, I'm glad that's what I was trying to get from you. I want you to be a little mad at me. I want you not on the farm right now. I love country. There's a place for country. Right now, we're not ready for you to be country. I need you to be in a courtroom. So get mad at me. Get in a courtroom, get your head right, ask him those questions. Jared Hall: Officer Centapalo, I want to take you back when you were interviewing Bobby C. Bobby C got an alert that his credit card was being used. Student: Yeah, that's right. Jared Hall: At the zip trip. Student: Yes, it was. AJ Bellido de Luna: So your country is an advantage, it's a true advantage that you have over people like me, people love hearing your voice. My voice is common, yours isn't. It can't be I'm on the farm. We got to find that balance where I get to be me, nut I don't want you to think like I'm on the farm. I earned my right to be here. Jared Hall: Yes, sir. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right. Cool. Thank you. All right. Get in the jury box. Jared Hall: Well, he made fun of my accent, which is funny now, but I felt like it was kind of a low blow at the time. Honestly, if he would've told me, my cross examination was terrible, I would've been like, okay, let me work on it. But yeah, he told me that and it pissed me off a little bit. I'm not going to lie, actually a lot, but it is true. He was like, yeah, I know you got chip on your shoulder. I can see it in your eyes. And that's true. And most of the time in my life, when I get off, when I get angry, I work harder. And that's what he was trying to bring out of me. And I respect him more now. AJ Bellido de Luna: I want you to write five questions, cross examining leading questions. This is your first foyer into a fact pattern. Don't go deep into the weeds. One fact, five questions. You have until 7:30. Katie Phang (host): Every year, AJ writes up a simple case packet for the students to argue. With this case in hand, they prepare for a short trial where they will have to do some of the most basic things. A trial lawyer must know how to do. Introduce evidence into the record, impeach a witness, refresh their memory and cross examine them. And that witness well, it'll be played to the hilt by AJ. AJ Bellido de Luna: So the story is about Bobby C and Veronica J, and it's a real story to a certain point. And then there's parts of it that aren't true. I used it back when I was at Maryland and then I adopted it to here so that it incorporates local town lore, including a bar that I love called Barbaro. So Bobby C and Veronica J were at a party. Veronica wanted to leave the party. She crossed over Martin Luther King Boulevard, near Camden pub on Baltimore Street in Baltimore City. Two men accost them with a gun, demands their property. Veronica gives her phone and her purse. Bobby gives his wallet. The robbers did not take Bobby's phone because he had an analog phone. The robbers laughed at him and they ran off. And Bobby C and Veronica J, they were so frightened by it that they never saw anyone. That they couldn't tell you, the person was a man or a woman or white, black, Hispanic, Asian. They couldn't tell you anything about them. They were afraid they were frozen in time. The two police officers show up, Bobby gets a phone call from the bank, says your credit cards being used at a gas station. Police put them in the back of the car. They go to the gas station, Veronica yells that's them, that's the people that robbed me. Bobby C says, I don't know. I was too afraid. I don't know if it's them or it's not. Police officers go out, talk to the guys. And they were both arrested for the robbery. AJ Bellido de Luna: Maybe those of you that were having a little bit of a hard time will agree with, rushing or skipping makes it hard. I make a mistake. So that's why you have to learn this, like the back of your hand. All right. I asked Genesis to do her five-question cross in front of all of you. There's a lesson here that we're going to learn. So there's an error and a recovery. I want you to hear the error so that you can learn from it. Not do it to yourselves. I'll explain it when it happens. We're good, Gensis? Genesis Salinas: Yes. You were called about a robbery? John Sydow: I was, yes. Genesis Salinas: It involved two victims. John Sydow: That's correct. Genesis Salinas: It did not mention the gender of the robbers. John Sydow: Correct? Genesis Salinas: It did not mention the gender of the robbers. John Sydow: That's correct. Genesis Salinas: You arrested two men at a gas station. John Sydow: Yes. It was two men. Genesis Salinas: So you arrested two men without having any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. John Sydow: So, we had other evidence to suggest that the robbers were male particular the call, Bobby C he was able to identify eventually that the two men. AJ Bellido de Luna: That's good. You got, you got back what you wanted. Right? All right. First, I put her on a spot, so thank you Genesis for doing that. What was the question that she shouldn't have asked? Cole Davila: You arrested two men without any description. AJ Bellido de Luna: Say the question again, Genesis. Genesis Salinas: So you arrested two men without having any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. AJ Bellido de Luna: Now that sounds like a yes or no question, doesn't it? Doesn't it? That's a yes or no question, but it's not. It's not a yes or no question. Say it again. Genesis Salinas: So you arrested two men without any underlying facts- AJ Bellido de Luna: Boom, without any underlying facts. What does that give the witness? That takes that yes or no question and creates it into an opportunity for a narrative. It's the one question too many. It's trying to get the witness to make the argument for you. When do we argue? When do we argue? Student: Close. AJ Bellido de Luna: Close. We're arguing close. Is the witness going to argue for me? No, the witness is never on my side, on a cross examination. Not going to help me. Genesis Salinas: So this is Genesis. I told him I grew up in a Mexican household and there was no sugar coating ever. It was always very direct. I would come out of room and my mom would say that shirt looks ugly, go change. It was very that's wrong, fix it. So here with AJ, I really like that teaching style. That's how I grew up. I feel home. It doesn't hurt my feelings. AJ Bellido de Luna: So if you do it wrong, it's going to be an improper impeachment. Someone's going to object because you do it wrong. Now you got to go back and do it again. Now the judge is getting pissed off at you. The jury's getting pissed off at you. So that's why we're trying to be perfect. So that you don't have to do it again. So you don't get objected to on an improper or an imperfect impeachment. Showing up both counsel, you don't have to ask- Tony Serra: I always stand. I stand, when I cross examine, I stand when I address the court, I definitely stand when I address the jury. Your mind has to be so fast, so acute, so much recall that you develop what you're going to say right then. It's the spontaneity that creates the value. My God, I've seen lawyers read the cross examination. I've seen lawyers read their closing without passion. That's not the way to do it young lawyers. Stand up, be vociferous, be independent, be spontaneous, be creative, fight, be in their face. AJ Bellido de Luna: But you should know your path, the way that you're going to go. The two, three things that I want from this witness, you should know what those are. You all are going to court tomorrow. How ready are you going to be? You cannot pass this class, if you do not enter a piece of evidence, impeach the witness and refresh their memory. Those are the three things that you have to do. That's it. I want to hear your thinking, your thoughts, how you want to do it, how you put your case together. It has to be logical. You're going to have your documents so that you can get to them, that you can easily locate that document, so that you have a copy for you, a copy for the judge, a copy for the witness. You might have a spare copy in case coffee gets spilled on one by accident. It's curious to see whether or not you are prepared for court. So you should be ready for trial. Katie Phang (host): For the students, tonight will be a long one, pressing their suits, rehearsing in front of the mirror. For tomorrow, it’s judgement day. AJ Bellido de Luna: I take it you know what a rabbit hole looks like. Karen Crawford: Yes, you can never get out. AJ Bellido de Luna: And what’s in the bottom? Karen Crawford: Nothing. AJ Bellido de Luna: Poop. Right? Rabbits live in their rabbit hole and they poop. When you go down a rabbit hole, you’re going down to a barrel of poop. Katie Phang (host): That’s next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of Sound Argument and iHeartRadio. Created, produced, written and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Sound design, editing and mixing by Lisa Gray, Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine This episode had additional field production by Kristen Cabrera. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Previous Next

< Back ADAM SHLAHET with guest, Director of Trial Advocacy, Fordham University "The jury trial is becoming more rare. That makes it more important that the students get the training in law school because the days of the young lawyer trying a hundred cases before they're 30, it doesn't happen." Previous Next

< Back PHOEBE MENAKER Student, Brooklyn Law "My grandmother was a social worker for victims and survivors of domestic violence. Between her impact that she's had on me and my general interest, that's brought me to the Victim Advocacy route." Previous Next

< Back Episode 7 7. Don’t Mess with Texas Air date: July 12, 2022 After a disappointing showing in the Battle of the Experts, the St. Mary's team is back together, determined to make a comeback. Mariela joins Andy, Jasmin and Cole, this time as an advocate. They pledge allegiance to Justice Sotomayor and Bad Bunny. The team is on the precipice of winning, only to face discrimination during a controversial semi-final round. Andy and her family celebrate El Grito. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: St. Mary's University Law School Texas chapters of ABOTA American Board of Trial Advocates Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . Bexar County DA | Twitter | Instagram FRIDA Mexican Restaurant | Instagram Hispanic National Bar Association National Conference of Women's Bar Associations National Association of Women Lawyers San Antonio Bar Association Bexar County Women’s Bar Association San Antonio Young Lawyers Association TRANSCRIPT Katie Phang [narration]: Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. AJ Bellido de Luna: This has happened more than once in my life, by the way. This has happened many times as growing up. My father got arrested in Dade County, Florida by the Sheriff's department because he didn't speak English well enough for the deputy to understand him, and he said that. He said the reason why he arrested my father was because he didn't understand him. That was the reason. On the day that I graduated from law school, I was my class speaker. We had run out of time. We were supposed to go to a lunch. We never made it to the lunch. My kids hadn't eaten and now we have to go to the Convention Center for the university-wide graduation. So, we walked down to the Convention Center in Baltimore and we walked to a Burger King that was between the law school and there. I remember my mother -- I could hear my mother at the counter trying to order and this woman at the counter, I could hear her say, "Hey, bitch, if you can't speak English, get out of my fucking line." The most important day of my life was my mother witnessing me graduating from law school, and on that day, I still had to hear that. That, and events like that, really drive me and you don't forget them. I think that's why I'm driven to come to a school like this, which is a school that has a lot of kids who are like me. [St. Mary’s team at a restaurant, ordering food and drinks] Student: Hey, did you guys want [inaudible 00:01:30] Student: Oh yes. Student: Oh, do you want to do this? Katie Phang [narration]: We're back with our St. Mary's University team in San Antonio. Andy Vizcarra, Jasmin Olguin, Mariela Encinas, and Cole Davila. They are the first to admit they beat themselves in their last competition, but today is a new day. AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah, hi. This is AJ Bellido de Luna. I'm the assistant Dean of advocacy at St. Mary's University School of Law. So right now, we're at the pre-dinner. We want our team to be together for bonding and focus. It's where we come together, where you have a drink where you have a nice meal and you get an opportunity just bond. Jasmin Olguin: I'm feeling really good today. I feel like we got out our nerves during Battle of the Experts. We really saw what we need to improve on, and I think we're going to do, God willing, pretty good. Cole Davila: God willing. Mariela Encinas: Yes, for St. Mary's University. Cole Davila: Honestly, I can't really add to that. We're going to do good. We all know what we're doing, just got to do it. Jasmin Olguin: Cole, you never even get nervous. Cole Davila: I get nervous, I just don't show it. I know how to hide it. Andy Vizcarra: Look at him. You hear him? I can do that. Cole Davila: I got anxiety issues. I learned how to hide that long time ago. Katie Phang [narration]: This is Class Action and I'm Katie Phang. This is Episode Four, “Don't mess with Texas” AJ Bellido de Luna: So let me set this up. The Best in Texas competition is going to be all Texas schools. There's 10 law schools in the great state of Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech and St. Mary's are putting it together so that all the schools in Texas can compete. So what we did is we said, we want this group of four people who had this great experience at a well-run tournament, but a bad outcome. The difference though, is that we're going to have Mariela, instead of just playing a witness, she earned the right to pick up an advocate spot. So, she's going to be the closer on the plaintiff's side of the case and that's a lot of responsibility that we're giving a 2L in her first competition. But we want to give her that, we think she's earned it. Mariela Encinas: I am freaking out a little bit, just a little bit, but I'll be fine. Kristen Cabrera: Wait, why are you freaking out? Mariela Encinas: 'Cause it's my first competition where I'm actually competing as an advocate. Andy Vizcarra: Mariela posted seven different memes of how stress she was last night. Mariela Encinas: I posted one. Cole Davila: Everyone's still on top of it. We bounced back from BOE and we're going well. They kept us together, thankfully. So we all know how each other works. Andy Vizcarra: This is a civil case. So Cole and I are the defense and Mariela and Jasmin are the plaintiffs. The case is pretty short and sweet, very, very short. My witness and the person that I'm crossing, it's two pages, double spaced of their statement. So it's really just how you're going to argue this stuff, there's not a whole lot of facts there. Just work with what you got. [Jasmin and Andy practicing in their hotel room] Jasmin Olguin: Your Honor. We do not intend to go into damages during today's trial. We will not go into any emotional or monetary damages. Our burden today is to prove that Mr. Williams suffered a permanent injury. That being quadriplegia. For experts... Jasmin Olguin: Quadriplegia. Andy Vizcarra: What did I say? Jasmin Olguin: Quadriplegia. That's not a real thing. Andy Vizcarra: You need to remind me that. Okay, say it again? Jasmin Olguin: Quadriplegia. Andy Vizcarra: Quadriplegia. Not quadriplegia. Andy Vizcarra: Why didn't you tell me this four weeks ago? Jasmin Olguin: Because I thought you knew, I thought that's just the way you said it. Andy Vizcarra: Quadriplegia. Jasmin Olguin: Quadriplegia. Okay. Mr. Williams suffers from quadriplegia. Our expert today will explain what... Andy Vizcarra: Mr. Williams isn't a quadriplegic. Jasmin Olguin: You don't pronounce the I? Andy Vizcarra: No. Jasmin Olguin: Our expert witness today will explain what quadriplegia is and how Mr. Williams suffers. Andy Vizcarra: What is? Jasmin Olguin: What quadriplegia is and how Mr. Williams suffers from it. Andy Vizcarra: My name's Andy Vizcarra, you catch my mom on a day she's mad at me, she'll call me Andrea, and I'm a 3L here at St. Mary's and I'm trial team captain. Law school's a very competitive place full of very competitive people individually. So, take the pandemic out of it and you're already dealing with, how do you get people to put the team over themselves and their own personal ambitions? How do you get them to see that the team is more important than that, and if they thrive, I thrive and if I thrive, they thrive. [St. Mary’s team practicing in their hotel room together, the night before the competition] Andy Vizcarra: Guys. We are practicing. We need to get through Cole's opening. Cole Davila: Your Honor, opposing counsel, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. May it please the court. Our circumstances determine our conditions. The decisions that we make at any given moment can change our lives for better or for worse. When things go bad for us, we try and look back at what happened, try and justify our actions, try and justify our decisions. But the fact is, hindsight's 20 20, and that is what is happening in today's case. Chris Williams, the plaintiff, is looking back at what happened, trying to explain things, trying to explain away his own actions that led to his injuries. Brad Simon: Great, great, great. What you're doing is really, really good. I want you to go back to where you said, and that's what's happening in today's case. So go back to that line. Cole Davila: Okay. Brad Simon: You say that next line that's what's happening in today's case [inaudible 00:07:28] Cole Davila: Okay. Brad Simon: Try that line again. That's what's happening in today's case pause, little bit softer. Chris Williams is trying to retell the story of what actually happened. Cole Davila: Okay. Brad Simon: So you're starting out that strong... Katie Phang [narration]: At this point in the season, the team has spent more time with each other than with their own families. They've developed a kind of sibling dynamic. Andy's the big bossy sister, Jasmin, the moody middle child. Mariela is the smart little sister and Cole, well, he's the serious brother. Cole Davila: I tend to be much more straightforward, head through the wall kind of thing, rather than being creative about it. Whereas Andy would be much more creative, much more artistic and so I've learned how to get in touch more with my personality and not hiding in it as much. Same thing with Jasmin, Jasmin is kind of, I think, a middle ground between me and Andy in terms of how outgoing we are. Just hanging around them has taught me how to show myself a bit more, whenever I've always been much more reserved and private. Mariela Encinas: I'm starting to notice that I'm picking up some of Andy's mannerisms just in life, just hanging out with her from so much. I'm really thankful for that opportunity just because I feel like it did help me in the courtroom. I definitely know I've come a long way. I felt a lot more comfortable in front of that witness stand doing my cross examination specifically than I did in the summer. Jasmin Olguin: Yeah. Tuesday, we had a practice and Andy was like, y'all need to be off paper for your directs and we actually could do it. I was like, okay, cool. We can do this, it's not crazy. Andy Vizcarra: I think the biggest thing that I've learned from both Cole and Jasmin, one was, I think I thought I knew how to lead before I even became captain and then you do, and then you're given this new team with these people that you've never worked with before and you're like, how do I do it? Do I do it like this? Am I hard? Am I mean? How do I get the outcome that I want? How do I be effective and pull us all together? [Andy Vizcarra at the office of the law firm where she works] Andy Vizcarra: This is my desk which is a mess right now. You caught me in a moment. So, a lot of post-it notes, every kind of post-it note that you can imagine, I have it. Lots of different type of pens, lots of highlighters. Oh, we've got a fake little gavel. This is the firm that I've interned at this summer. It's the Rosenblatt Law firm here in San Antonio. And this is where everyone's hiding. I have the podcast. Law firm staff: Hi, we're everyone... Andy Vizcarra: This is Carrie and Leanna and Carrie, but not spelled the same way. And Melissa. Kevin Huffman: Wait a minute, while we have you all. How is Andy doing? Law firm staff: She's amazing. Personality. Kevin Huffman: That's it? Andy Vizcarra: They're under duress. They're like, what do we say? Law firm staff: From what I hear work wise, she's doing an amazing job, but then personality wise, we enjoy her every day. For sure. She's already done a deposition that she handled, prepared for and did the questioning. She does quite a bit of a lot of the discovery work and those sort of things... Research for the litigation team. So she's doing a good job. Andy Vizcarra: We're in the war room. This is one of my favorite rooms. So on the wall, we've got all different kinds of maps of Texas and the US, what used to be Mexico. So Texas slash the Northern part of Mexico. I love telling people fun facts about Texas because a lot of people don't know it. Texas has been under six different flags. First it was under Spanish, French, Mexican, let's see, Confederacy, it's Republic, and then the U.S. I think I'm a lot calmer here, which is weird. The weight is... Not that the weight at school isn't real, but here it's like these are real people, real cases, real money on the line. Real people with real stories and real problems. Jennifer Beldon Rosenblatt: Andy started for us... May? Andy Vizcarra: March. Jennifer Beldon Rosenblatt: March of this year... Katie Phang [narration]: Jennifer Beldon Rosenblatt is a partner at the firm and Andy's supervising attorney. Jennifer Beldon Rosenblatt: I wanted to offer her a job on the spot. It is very rare to find somebody with the composure to be able to think ahead to the next question, and to be able to catch your breath when somebody's attacking you. Andy has that ability. I came out of law school and went directly to being a prosecutor. There is something about prosecution that is different than any other field. We call it getting your courtroom legs. So I asked her, what's your plan? I want her to go work for the DA's office because I want her to have that experience, but I'm only going to let her go if she swears she's coming back, otherwise I'm going to make sure she doesn't get a job at any DA's office in the surrounding 200 square miles. I'll just apologize to her mom. Andy Vizcarra: She'll just have to move back in with you. She'd love that. [13:00] [Mexican band playing in background, Spanish language speaking of MC, attendees at San Antonio’s El Grito Mexican Independence Day ceremony] Female Attendee: Today is the Mexican Independence Day. We celebrate September 15th at night. We call it El Grito, because at 10 o'clock we shout. We scream out a phrase of “Viva Mexico” and... Which, I will. I'm actually the one that's going to do it later on tonight after the mariachis' leaves. Male Attendee: I think it's important to celebrate your heritage and your roots, where you come from and never forgetting the sacrifices that my parents specifically made to get us here to the United States to live a better life, and even though we're proud Americans at the same time, our heritage, we're proud of it as well, and I think that's what's very important about celebrating moments like this. [band plays the U.S. national anthem, followed by applause] [St. Mary’s coach AJ Bellido de Luna during class with law students] AJ Bellido de Luna: That is the technical correct way of doing it. Are you ready for the incorrect non-technical way to do it? Are you guys ready to handle that? Just say yes. What's your birthday? AJ Bellido de Luna: I didn't like getting food stamps. I didn't like getting government food. I didn't like being laughed at by others. We were poor. I got a full-time job working 60 hours a week at Mi Hermana restaurant for $1 an hour when I was 12 years old. All that entire $60 went to my house. AJ Bellido de Luna: Doing it wrong. Silly, right? Silly in order to do it wrong, you have to be able to do it right? But what you don't want, is you don't want to be called out by a judge. As you progress, as you start practicing in front of judges, judges are going to know that you know how to do it. So what are they going to do? They're going to give you a little bit more leeway each time, because we want to get to the good stuff, okay? So I don't want you to leave here and think.... AJ Bellido de Luna: You had asked me about my connection here. If we really take our time and teach people properly, then those people like me, and my family, the way that I grew up, we'd have better representation because there would be people out there that will be able to do it. So when I came here, to this school to visit it, when they were looking for the advocacy director and I took a look around and I saw what was here, it reminded me of home. It reminded me of my childhood. [St. Mary’s coach AJ Bellido de Luna during video call with other mock trial coaches and tournament judges] AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. I think I'm sharing screen now is that right? A head nod or two would be great. Thank you. Katie Phang [narration]: Inside his office at St. Mary's, coach AJ Bellido de Luna is doing double duty. He's keeping an eye on his team and running the tournament. Right before the round starts, AJ briefs the judges. This is important. The competition season, it's had some issues. AJ Bellido de Luna: We need to mention this and I hate mentioning it, but we need to and those are your subconscious biases against the competitors for race, gender, ethnicity, religion, age, none of that should play a role in any of the arguments or in your scoring. Be cognizant of what you are communicating and how you are communicating with students. So, three weeks ago, we were at a tournament and a judge said, I want to talk to the Black girl now. That's highly, highly inappropriate to bring out her race and to call a woman, a girl, not by her name. All of you have your name. All of our advocates are going to have their name. If you want to give comments to an advocate, call them by their name. You might want to say their role. I want to talk to the opener or the closer, but anything like that is highly inappropriate. Then we had another judge who said the glasses that you're wearing, make your eyes look so pretty. That's also inappropriate. The only comments that should be made to any of these advocates should be on their advocacy. That's it, nothing else. Now I will say, as leaders in our field, you might see something... AJ Bellido de Luna: Racism is not dead, it's alive and well. These are issues that these young ladies and others are going to have to deal with for their entire lives until racism dies in this country. Katie Phang [narration]: The Best of Texas round one. [Competition via Zoom] Bailiff: If I could have all of the judges and competitors, please turn your cameras on so we can just do a quick conflict check, and witnesses too. Judges and competitors, does anyone look familiar? Judge 1: Not to me. Judge 2: Not to me either. Bailiff: Thank you. So I believe we can begin. Katie Phang [narration]: This is a civil trial. Chris Williams was a star athlete who went to a rock concert, was thrown to the ground by security staff and is now paralyzed from the neck down. Cole Davila: Your Honor, opposing counsel, ladies and gentlemen on the jury, may it please the court. Our circumstances determine our conditions. The decisions we make at any given moment in our lives forever alter the course of our life for better or for worse. When things go wrong for us, we try and look back through rose colored lenses to try and justify what happened to try and explain away the reasoning's and things that led to our current condition. We try and blame others for our wrongs, for our own negligence. That is what is going on today. That is what the plaintiffs are trying to do. Chris Williams, the plaintiff... Katie Phang [narration]: Later in the round, Andy grills the plaintiff, getting her to admit that she knew her actions had consequences. Andy Vizcarra: Alright, Ms. Williams, so you knew that getting into that mosh pit could jeopardize your lacrosse career, but you did it anyway and you didn't stop there. The second song to “More Cowbell” came on and something came over you. When that song came over you, you decided to jump on the group of strangers nearby. Witness: Yes. Andy Vizcarra: Now you don't know if you hurt these people, as you jumped on them? Witness: I'd crowd surfed before... Andy Vizcarra: We originally thought it was a plaintiff's case and then Cole and I really hit the defense pretty hard. The plaintiff's side is having a little bit more trouble than we thought they would. Andy Vizcarra: Hold on, AJ’s calling, hello? AJ Bellido de Luna: So look, all in all it was good round for us. You can fix that one little thing pretty easily. Little things that you guys are doing-- Andy Vizcarra: I know. AJ Bellido de Luna: Stop doing it if you want to win, win, win. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. AJ Bellido de Luna: Right? It's a little thing, but it means, these are trial lawyers, right? They want us to be that sharpness, right? Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. AJ Bellido de Luna: So let's get that sharpness in there. Andy Vizcarra: You're right. AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but listen, that's okay, right? We put the jitters out on that one. That's fine. If we want to win, win, win, we cannot make those moves forward. Alright. So the screen screwed up on us, right? [Andy Vizcarra outside FRIDA Restaurant in San Antonio] Andy Vizcarra: So we are at Frida Mexican Restaurant and Bars, the full name. This is my parents' restaurant that we are all super proud of. We opened during COVID because it was either open and lose money or stay closed and lose money. I'm still a server here when I'm not in school and not fully employed. They might laugh, but they will agree with me. I think I was the perfect kid, not perfect, kids mess up and stuff but I was a golden child. I never stepped out of line and if I stepped like half a toe out of line, it was right back in. I wasn't really a rule breaker. I don't know if it's a child of immigrants thing. There's a million questions about identity that I'm hyper aware of. That I go through my head all the time. Am I too white? Should I be more Mexican? Wait, no, I am Mexican. I don't have to be more, anything. Senior year of college, I was having an identity crisis of, going back to Texas. I don't know why it got into my head that I needed to look more Mexican. So I dyed my hair dark brown, similar to my mom's hair color and I hated it. I chopped it off and I tried to wear more greens and color. If you get a chance to see my mom, she's this Brown woman with black wavy hair and she's got all these bracelets and she's always dressed in colorful things from head to toe, so I was just... Maybe I'm not embracing who I am. Maybe I need to do it and it just felt wrong and it was... Oh my God, am I... Do I hate my culture? No, no, no, no stop. It's an overthinking game. Always. Kevin Huffman: Let's just go in. Andy Vizcarra: Yes. Kevin Huffman: Alright, meet your dad. Andy Vizcarra: Yes. Kevin Huffman: What's your Dad's name? Andy Vizcarra: Elizandro. Kevin Huffman: Elizandro. Andy Vizcarra: Yes. Cool, cool. Cool. Okay. This is us. Oh, there's my dad. Hola, Papa. Cómo estás? [Spanish 00:23:11] Elizandro Vizcarra: Nice to meet you. [inaudible 00:23:16] Oh yeah. I know. Kevin Huffman: We’re going to follow you. Elizandro Vizcarra: This is the blue room. That one is the rose room, okay? The capacity is 350 people. It's 10,000 square feet. Kevin Huffman: Wow. It's beautiful. Elizandro Vizcarra: This is the front of the kitchen. [Spanish 00:23:41] The line, yeah. We have the prep team in the morning. So the rest of the team, they come at four o'clock. The thing with Mexico is depending on where you go, every state, they got a particular food. But, if you go to the state, every little town, they got... Even something special you never find it anywhere else. Andy Vizcarra: We have this uncle who he, not by blood, but he's from the Pacific coast. He's from Mazatlan. I've been everywhere in Mexico. Mexico has the most phenomenal food in the world, a hundred and 10 percent but I have never eaten agua chiles like the agua chiles that he makes because.... He's from the coast, he's from there. He's from this little town and his grandma taught it to make them a certain way. It's crazy. Andy Vizcarra: This is chocolate cake. Elizandro Vizcarra: Chocolate cake, for tonight. Elizandro Vizcarra: Well, I feel like I got my goal, with her... [Spanish 00:24:42] Andy Vizcarra: He said that it's like seeing my goal come true. My goal as a father has always been for her to be on her own two feet. To finally get her title as a lawyer, that's the end goal. That's it, that's the only thing I wanted as a father and that's the most important thing for parents everywhere I think, is to see your child through that. Elizandro Vizcarra: Not only the goal, but my dream. It's hard, in this world and this country or wherever you go, the kids finish the school. I got a lot of family in United States and most of them, the young people from my family, they don't finish school for some reason and it's important. I feel proud of that, but it is not easy. It is hard sometime, but... [Spanish 00:25:44] Andy Vizcarra: He said, I think you catch that I'm proud, in English, as we all are, but in America, if you work hard enough, you can do anything. Which is something that he's told me since I was a kid and he says that's what I tell my girls. If you work hard enough, you can do anything here. It's different over there. It’s not the same. You can work as hard as a dog there for years, your whole life and not get anything. That's the beauty of America. Sometimes the path isn't easy. I'm not saying it's easy. Sometimes it gets really, really hard, but you just stick to it. You stick to it until you get to where you're going and sometimes you don't know where you're going, but if you keep working hard, it'll become clear and you just have to have a lot of determination and a lot of hard work. Elizandro Vizcarra: [Spanish 00:26:36] Andy Vizcarra: He said, first of all yes, there's a lot of discrimination here in the U.S., but don't get me wrong, there's discrimination everywhere. But that being said, there is a lot here that I've experienced and so raising our girls, my wife as well as I, have tried to teach them not only to not be that way and to respect people and to be the opposite of those people that do discriminate against us. Also, at the same time to be very wary of those people because one thing is an insult, the other thing is that they could be very dangerous. Katie Phang [narration]: The scores come in. St. Mary's is going into the next round against Baylor. Andy Vizcarra: It's always us and Baylor in the end. Always. They're our arch nemesis. Katie Phang [narration]: With one win already under their belts, the team is feeling fresh. In the upcoming round, Jasmin and Mariela will argue for the plaintiff, while Andy and Cole will act as witnesses. [St. Mary’s team in hotel room prepping for tournament] Andy Vizcarra: Do you know how to use the mics? Okay. Plug in, let's get everything ready. Remember all of the steps as impeachment. You made a statement, you were telling the truth, you were complete, you were accurate. You were truthful. I know y'all know all these things, but you know how we forget so we're running them through you. Andy Vizcarra: We need to break this curse of, even when we're really good and we get to semifinals, or even when we get to finals, you always lose to Baylor. AJ Bellido de Luna: If they could win this round, right? If they come out victory in this round, then it's leave your advocacy alone, let's talk about these little things and figure out why they're happening. Once you reach a certain standard, you can maintain that standard and we just haven't reached that standard yet. We're still growing. I don't know when it's going to happen, but it is happening for us. We are getting better and we'll continue to get better. [at the home of the parents of Jasmin Olguin; dog bark] [Spanish 00:28:50] Mrs. Olguin: Right there. Leave it right there (to dog). [Spanish 00:29:04] Alfredo de la Garza: [Spanish] Mrs. Olguin: [Spanish] Do you have a dog? Alfredo de la Garza: [Spanish] Mrs. Olguin: [Spanish] Okay. [Best in Texas Competition round via Zoom] Judge: Are we ready for opening statements? Alright, please proceed. Katie Phang [narration]: In another room in San Antonio, this one a living room Jasmin's parents are glued to their computer screen watching their daughters opening. Jasmin Olguin: Good afternoon, your Honor. My name is Jasmin Olguin and I, along with my co-counsel Mariela Encinas represent the plaintiff, Mr. Chris Williams. Mrs. Olguin: Yes. Last time she do it real good too. Mr. Olguin: She's always been very motivated on this criminal thing since the third grade and she was asked, what she wanted to do as major? She said, I want to be a criminal lawyer. Mrs. Olguin: Always. Mr. Olguin: She has it in her blood, as far as being that career. As her parents, we're surprised and shocked that she wants something like that. I always thought she was going to be a professor at the university or something that. Jasmin Olguin: [via Zoom] Don't let them get you first. I didn't know that those were the words that Officer Lavell lived by. I didn't know that those were the words that Officer Lavell preached to the members of his own security team. I didn't know that when I went to Alden Pavilion that day. Katie Phang [narration]: The opening is innovative, powerful. It's written from the plaintiff's point of view. The judges imagine being Chris Williams, a victim of violence by security guards that left him paralyzed. Jasmin Olguin: They pick me up and they slam my head onto the pavement and I can just hear and feel the bones of my neck breaking and they pick me up one more time. I just feel my head drop and I can't feel my body. I can't feel anything. They dropped me into a puddle of mud and they walk away and the last thing I remember seeing are pink shirts with the word security on them. This is the first day as a quadriplegic. We will ask that you find the only just verdict to find the different... Alfredo de la Garza: What do you think? Mrs. Olguin: I'm real proud of mijita. She's a beautiful girl and I love her. Mr. Olguin: She's going to have a tough case. A tough case. Yes. She plays a very good role. Katie Phang [narration]: Then Mariela steps into the role of being an advocate for her first mock trial ever. She's cross examining a witness. Mariela Encinas: Now, Dr. Hatch, I want to talk to you about something that we can agree on. We can agree that Chris sustained his injuries on June 29th, 2019. Witness: Certainly. Mariela Encinas: And he sustained those injuries while being escorted out of the pavilion. Witness: Certainly. Yes. Mariela Encinas: Being escorted out by the security team at Alden Pavilion. Witness: Yes. Mariela Encinas: Now the injuries... [Coach AJ watching the competition via Zoom in his hotel room] AJ Bellido de Luna: Solid, solid, she looks strong. Mariela Encinas: [via Zoom] The last people you remember being with the night of June 29th, 2019? AJ Bellido de Luna: She's been looking nervous in practice, right? But look at her, she looks like she's been here before. Mariela Encinas: [via Zoom] Thank you, Dr. Hatch. That one possible way of raising his head. That's consistent with Chris Williams version of the story. Witness: Well, the theoretical possibility. Yes. AJ Bellido de Luna: I see somebody who is blossoming right in front of our eyes. Mariela Encinas: They put his arms behind his back and they slammed his head, head first into the pavement and that is when Chris felt it. The bones in his neck break and he yelled at them, trying to tell them that they had hurt him, but they didn't care. They just kept going. Not until they felt they had enough, did they stop. At which point they lifted Chris up and his head fell forward. That's when Chris felt it, this body that he had trained, this body that was so full of life just minutes before, it went completely limp. Judge 1: [via Zoom] Okay. Mariela, direct of Chris Williams, I thought was great. I appreciated that you focused on what came out in cross and really came back and hammered that home with the redirect. Also, Mariela, I thought your final argument was terrific. The words I wrote are done was captivating, powerful, persuasive, effective. You had me just watching your every move on screen so I can tell that you put in the work, but you weren't reading it. You were actually delivering it and you were looking into your camera and you were really making me believe what you were selling me. So, I just wanted to commend you on that as well. So both of you ladies, good job for [inaudible 00:34:13] plaintiff as well. Alright. On the defense side real quick... Mariela Encinas: It was a huge adrenaline rush walking out of there. Then he called me Mike Tyson. I mean in a good way. As a coach, he doesn't lie to us. He doesn't sugarcoat a single thing. If we're bad, he's going to tell us we're bad, he's going to help us be better. Knowing that he said that I did well, I knew for sure that I had done well. Katie Phang [narration]: Back in the tab room, AJ is seeing the tournament results in real time. AJ Bellido de Luna: Whoa, what are the odds of that? Baylor scored 93 points the first round, we scored 93 points the second round. Kristen Cabrera: Wow. Interesting. AJ Bellido de Luna: That is really interesting. St. Mary's took a ballot, which puts us at four, which still puts us in front of Baylor, which is nice. 86 plus 102. So they're guaranteed quarter final. They have six ballots. They're kicking butt. [inside FRIDA restaurant with the St. Mary’s team] AJ Bellido de Luna: Ooh. There's short rib tacos and there's rib eye tacos. [inaudible 00:35:33] Mariela Encinas: We had dinner before we went on the second day and he's like, I want to talk for a good 15 minutes. Get business out of the way so we can have fun tonight. AJ Bellido de Luna: You, young lady were amazing today. Okay? I want you to know that I was extremely proud of you. [applause] Mariela Encinas: Thank you. AJ Bellido de Luna: It was your first close. It was your first direct. It was your first cross and you looked the part the entire time. Mariela Encinas: Thank you. AJ Bellido de Luna: Alright? I need you to keep doing that. So we're in third place. How often do I tell you how we're doing? Jasmin Olguin: Never. AJ Bellido de Luna: Never we're in third place. You all need to step up. She needs you. We're not expecting Mariela to be up here with you, but here's the thing. You weren't up here. Your advocacy is fantastic. The words that you're using, the delivery, all of that is fantastic. I wouldn't change a single word that you did today. What have I been complaining with you guys from BOE? Andy Vizcarra: The errors. AJ Bellido de Luna: Unforced errors, right? You had fewer today, but you should have stomped those teams. So we're in third, we're in a good position, right? We are totally in control of our destiny. Win and we're in. Quarter finals is not good enough for you. It's not. Win and we are in, okay? We could be the two-seed tomorrow, which puts us in a great position to get into semifinals and then it's a new game. So, you’ve got to be hungry for it as a team, not as an individual, as a team. Mariela Encinas: So I had a lot of fun with my closing. AJ Bellido de Luna: You got to have fun. None of this is worth it if you're not having fun, okay? Let's eat, let's break bread. Let's have fun. Katie Phang [narration]: The next day, heading into the quarter finals, Jasmin and Mariela represent the plaintiff. Again. They're feeling loose. Confident. They're having fun. [Jasmin and Mariela in hotel room, listening to Bad Bunny] Jasmin Olguin: I got to be strong to do this for the team. For all the women. For all the Mexicans out there. I got ya'll on this one. This is it. This is all the people who didn't believe in you. Looking flawless. I see you, defense attorney. Hey, what's up your Honor. My name is Jasmin. Call me Jazz. My co-counsel, Mariela. Great person. You know what I'm talking about. [deep breath] This is for Chris Williams. Chris Williams is in this courthouse and you are fighting for him. Yeah you are. Make your team proud. St. Mary's be out here, you're going to be in the semi's. This determines it, you feel me? I feel you girl. [deep breaths] Those are the deepest breaths I've ever taken in my life. Coach may be on here. Your mom might be on here. Boyfriend's on there. Mariela's dad's on there. Mariela Encinas: This one is for all the Mexicans and Bad Bunny. Jasmin Olguin: And Chris Williams. This is for the Mexicans, I'm not even lying to ya'll. Mariela Encinas: For the Mexicans, for all these people who got us here, allowed us to be in law school, allowed us to go on the court... Jasmin Olguin: Talking to you Sonia. This is for Sonia Sotomayor. Practice what you preach. This is it. Katie Phang [narration]: The quarter final. It's about to start. The court is assembling online. [Best in Texas competition round begins, via Zoom, team in their hotel rooms] Bailiff: Thank you. What about the plaintiff? Jasmin Olguin: Hi bailiff. Sorry. All of plaintiff is here. Bailiff: Thank you for that clarification. As I placed in the chat and I made the announcement earlier, please change your name to read your role, whether you're plaintiff or defense, a dash, and then your full name. Katie Phang [narration]: Mariela calls her first witness played by Cole to the stand. Mariela Encinas: What happened at the point when you were slammed into the ground head first? Cole Davila: Well, I could feel and hear the bones in my neck breaking. I yelled at them to stop that they were breaking my neck, but they just kept on beating me up. Mariela Encinas: At what point were you injured? Competitor: He cannot testify as to when he was actually injured. He cannot diagnose himself your Honor. Mariela Encinas: Your Honor, may I be heard? Judge: You may. Mariela Encinas: Your Honor, he's testifying to his own experience. I think he would know when he was unable to stop walking and was unable to feel his body and that is the injury that we are here today about, is his quadriplegia. Judge: Your objection's overruled. Mariela Encinas: I'll repeat my question, Chris. At what point were you injured? Cole Davila: I was injured when the security guards of Alden Pavilion put my hands behind my back and slammed my head into the ground. Mariela Encinas: And Chris, when you got there prior... AJ Bellido de Luna: We're in a quarter final round and we're doing great. Everything seems to be going along just fine. I think we're the better team. I think we're performing better. Team's doing everything that I could possibly ask of them. Katie Phang [narration]: And then, this happens. Bailiff: Question for the plaintiff's team. Is there only one attorney? Mariela Encinas: No bailiff, there's two. We are switching out the names because we have one advocate room. AJ Bellido de Luna: I received the phone call saying hey, the judges are saying that you guys are cheating because you have one advocate playing all the roles. I said no, that isn't true. We have two advocates. We have two witnesses. We have two different people doing the two roles. So, at first when they said it, I won't say that I was incredulous at first when it was... I thought it was a joke. I thought it was someone was trying to be funny. But then, I got a second phone call and the judges were insisting that we had one person performing all of the advocate roles. I said, we have two different people up there. One's tall. One's short. One's thin with a long face. One is a little heavier with a round face. One is wearing makeup. One's just wearing base. One is wearing a black suit. One is wearing a blue suit and I could see the different colors of the suits on the screen. One is wearing pearled earrings. The other one is wearing no earrings. They both have long hair, but one has it over their shoulder and the other one has it behind their back. So the only thing that's similar to them is that they're both Latinas. They're both brown skinned. That's the only thing that's similar to them. Other than that, it's two completely different people and you can't mix them up. Bailiff: So, you are Ms. Encinas? Mariela Encinas: Yes. Yes. Bailiff: And the other attorney is Ms... What is it? Mariela Encinas: Olguin. Bailiff: Olguin. Okay. Well Judge [inaudible 00:43:58] I am prepared whenever you are. Jasmin Olguin: [to Mariela] He thinks we're the same. You're on there. Katie Phang [narration]: The interruption is bizarre. It comes right before Mariela has to deliver a lengthy and complex closing argument for the prosecution. No one else has had to do this. Mariela. She fights through it. Mariela Encinas: Don't let them get you first. The words that Joe Levall lives by. The words that he preaches to his fellow security guards. The words spoken by the person who was supposed to keep concert goers safe the night of June 29th, 2019. Defense wants you to believe that Chris struggled that he was going crazy and resisting, but defense also implies that he could have sustained his injuries while crowd surfing or even slam dancing, but nobody else's stories aligned with that. Even their own expert and ours say that the injuries were sustained after he was crowd surfing and after he was slam dancing. For that reason, again, we asked that you find Alden Pavilion liable for the injuries that were sustained by Chris Williams on June 29th, 2019. Bailiff: Thank you. Now the judges will adjourn. Before you all remove yourselves from the room or before we adjourn rather, can we have the team for the plaintiff? We need to verify which one of you all did which portions of the trial. So can you... Mariela Encinas: Yes, your Honor. Oh, sorry, yes bailiff. So I, Mariela Encinas did the direct of Chris Williams as well as the cross of Dr. Hatch and the closing. My co-counsel Jasmin Olguin did the opening, the direct of Dr. Alvarez and then the cross of Joe Lavell. Bailiff: Thank you for that. [inaudible 00:46:19] would like to... If could you could please turn your cameras on and get ready to give you these teams [inaudible 00:46:26] Mariela Encinas: Can you turn the camera on? Katie Phang [narration]: With a few minutes to spare before the verdict, the team drives over to AJ's office. AJ Bellido de Luna: By then the results had come out, so I called them into the conference room and I told them... I think you could tell by looking at me and obviously, your fans out there don't see my face and the tears that are forming, it's real. AJ Bellido de Luna: We didn't advance. Andy Vizcarra: What? AJ Bellido de Luna: We did not advance. Sometimes you lose and you wonder if you left it on the floor or not. Did you leave it on the field? Or you know you didn't do your best. It's very upsetting to me, I can't imagine how you guys feel, because I know in my heart that you guys were not just the better advocates, but you were substantially better than the other team. But in this case, the same thing happened that happened to us in the first round. It went to a tiebreak and we lost in the tiebreak, which is a really hard pill to swallow. That angers me. I know it angers you. You can define that however you want to define it. I know how I'm defining it. Did that play a role in their final decision? I don't know, but it's really upsetting. I'm sorry. This isn't the first time in your life that's going to happen and it's not going to be the last times in your life that's going to happen. There's nothing I can do to make it better. Jasmin Olguin: So we lost that round? AJ Bellido de Luna: We lost that round two to one. You did. I'd like to tell you something different, but I got nothing more to tell you. There's literally nothing we can do about that. Nothing. Other than I'm sorry. Katie Phang: In the immediacy of that happening, not really knowing what was going on though. What were your thoughts? Mariela Encinas: Honestly, I think the part that hurts the most is probably the misidentification. I think they're so interconnected. The fact that they thought we were cheating because of the misidentification. But the misidentification hurt a little more. There's literally no way to train and prepare for that. Katie Phang: But then later on, when you found out that there was this... I'm beyond upset about it. I'm so impressed with how calm you are about this. But, Jasmin, in that moment later on, when you found out that there was this insinuation, if not outright accusation that you and Mariela had been cheating in this round, what was your reaction? Jasmin Olguin: Upset and hurt. I think I was really confused. I was in shock. Everyone else was pretty upset about it, but I couldn't cry right away because I'm... There's no way that just happened. That round, just, yeah. Mariela Encinas: Honestly, what I take away is it doesn't matter how hard I work, how much time or energy I put into something. Things like this will still cost me and it's a hard pill to swallow. It's something that you have to learn unfortunately, in a predominantly white field that it might affect you. This time around it was judges, when you're in practice, it might be juries. It might be the judge. It might be a juror. It might be opposing counsel. It might be someone, right? This is a hurdle that has to be jumped that not everybody's going to have to jump with you. Katie Phang: Jasmin, has that experience at Best in Texas with... Do you have a description of what you thought happened? I don't know, and you don't have to agree with me Jasmin, but it sounds like racism to me? It sounds like on a good day, some type of implicit bias maybe? I don't know, but has that affected you, Jasmin, in any way on your outlook, on just life? Not just on mock trial, but on life? Jasmin Olguin: It definitely has. It just makes me scared that that is ever going to affect me in the future when I'm representing a client. I don't want to go up there and do an open or close and people aren't listening to what I'm saying. What if we have the better case and they're instead going to look at me different, because the way I look. Maybe they're going to look at me as less and they're going to see oh, this other attorney's superior because the color of their skin and that is what scares me. AJ Bellido de Luna: We've now had three teams that are 100% Latino, so I'm proud of what we've done there, in increasing the diversity of the team. We still have room to grow. I'm here to train students to be lawyers and most of these kids are going to be lawyers right here in San Antonio, where the color of their skin in a courtroom doesn't matter. If you run down to the courthouse right now, a great deal of those attorneys are Latino/Latina. They're not going to face what they faced last weekend here. Oddly enough, I believe that the world is good. I do. I believe that most of our intentions are right. Even in this situation, the folks that had our kids go through this, I do not doubt for a second that they do not think they did anything wrong, that they were just clarifying. So what I want them to do is, I want them to just be strong. I want them to continue to work on becoming trial lawyers, to represent people that go through what they went through, but go through it because of their job or their daily life or whatever it is that they do. I am not preparing competitors. I am preparing lawyers, trial lawyers. I'm preparing them for life and the real courtroom. Andy Vizcarra: 1.3% of lawyers in the United States are Latina women. 1.3. Katie Phang: It's a very small percentage, very small. Andy Vizcarra: Our school is 80% Hispanic, 70, 80, something crazy above the norm in terms of law schools in the United States. The team itself is 70, 80% Hispanic. So alright, well wherever St Mary's goes, our students, the majority of them are Hispanic and what does that say? What does that say to that kid that maybe took out loans and works two jobs and takes care of their Abuelita at home and is really struggling to stay in school, but they really so badly want to be an attorney, but they go somewhere and they just keep getting knocked down. What does that say? [live Mariachi band playing and singing traditional Mexican music at FRIDA restaurant] Katie Phang [narration]: It's El Grito, Mexican Independence Day and Andy has come home to Frida her family's restaurant to celebrate. [live Mariachi band playing traditional Mexican music in background] Rosa Vizcarra: I saw her passion since she was in high school and even before that, probably middle school. She was always social advocate. She's always interested further into what was going on in the country, in the world. Always loving history, always loving, spreading the word about rights and why things should be this way and not that way. But at the same time expressing why things were imperfect and how it falls in the universe. You could see her joy and her explosion of so many ideas and so many just... Passion, but intelligence and brightness and good. Katie Phang [narration]: That's Andy's mom, Rosa Vizcarra. Elizandro Vizcarra: [Spanish 55:25] Rosa Vizcarra: For me, was important to always celebrate this date with my children and show them and remind them that this is who you are and this is where we come from and this is our history. You should know who Hidalgo is, and you should know what the Grito represents, and you should know what the flag represents, the whole history behind it. Because that will just make you richer and broader and wiser and more tolerant and more understanding of everybody's different points of view. But if you have a strong foundation... I have always believed that it's like a house, right? You have to have a strong foundation, so you can hold the wind and the hurricanes and everything that comes to you and that comes from family, that comes from history. As kids, you’re reminded of it. You got to know what the Grito is, you got to know what it means, but it's an opportunity to come together. It's an opportunity to play friends to savor the flavors in Mexico. That's just the importance of it. Andy and friend: Uno, dos, tres. Mexicano! [Spanish] Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: Viva, Hidaldo! Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: [Spanish] Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: [Spanish] Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: [Spanish] Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: [Spanish] Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: ¡Viva la Independencia Nacional! Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: ¡Viva Mexico! Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: ¡Viva Mexico! Crowd: Viva! Andy and friend: ¡Viva Mexico! Crowd: Viva! [cheers and applause] Andy Vizcarra: [via phone message] Hi, my name is Andy Vizcarra and I had an interview with the District Attorney's office today. I thought the interview went pretty well, I hope. I'm always, knock on wood when I say that, but I think they liked me. I'm feeling good this morning, going into it, I'm ready. Oh my gosh, hold on. - Ron Volesky: I say where's Native American representation in state government? How many cabinet members in state government are Native American? How many Native Americans are on the circuit court bench throughout the state of South Dakota? Can I have an amen? Thank you! [crowd applause] Katie Phang [narration]: That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Created, produced and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episode was written by Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norvell. Sound design, editing, and mixing by Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine. This episode had additional field production by Kristin Cabrera and Alfredo De La Garza. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. # END Previous Next

Class Action With Katie Phang A podcast documentary series about the next generation of lawyers Subscribe : Apple Podcasts Pocket Casts Spotify iHeart Podcasts RSS Listen to the Latest Episode: Bonus: Life as a 1L Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with former Dillard students Amaya Ronczyk and Lajeanne Shelton. Amaya is currently a 1L at Harvard Law, and Lajeanne is a 1L at UC Hastings Law. They talk about their personal experiences as a first-year law student, along with giving some helpful advice for future students, going from an HBCU to a PWI, skills carried over from the Dillard Mock Trial team into their current courses, and some exciting news about this year’s Dillard case law. jeffthebean, 07/22/2022 Fantastic! Can’t get enough! Every Tuesday I look forward to a new episode. I listen to quite a few legal-world podcasts, but this one has that “something” different about it in following folks that haven't become lawyers yet, but are well on their way, and you can hear their fire, their passion for what they’re doing just over the audio format. It’s great. I find myself getting amped up when things go well for them, and sharing in their disappointment in some measure when things don’t work out the way they wanted. It’s very compelling storytelling, and I hope they’ll eventually go to a twice a week release schedule…maybe…in the future! gufhhfse, 06/20/2022 Mock Trial heaven "As a 30 year practicing trial attorney and a coach of a high school mock trial team this is a great podcast. Although high school is not law school it really brings out the intensity and passion the people who do Mock Trial have. And some great tips for people who do it. I can’t wait for the rest of the episodes. Going to recommend it to my students and everybody I know involved in Mock Trial." Saguaro123, 06/01/2022 The exciting world of mock trial Based on the trailer, I can’t wait to follow the ins and outs of young lawyers figuring out their way through their arguments. Always great to learn how it all works. And so happy to see Katie Phang as host. She is such a delight on NBC. Go, Class Action, go!!! About Class Action Class Action with Katie Phang is an immersive 12 part documentary podcast series about the next generation of lawyers, heard through the voices of law students competing in mock trial tournaments around the country.​ ​ Producers spent a year following three law school teams and an undergraduate pre-law program. The series follows a natural narrative arc of the season. Just like in athletics, there are intensive bootcamps and scrimmages, then high-stakes tournaments against other schools. The cases range from mob murders, arson and to civil rights law. And the action is fierce. Class Action is a production of Sound Argument and iHeartMedia. Read More "What a powerful narrative you all have woven together. Thank you, again, for telling the story of these wonderful young people in such a powerful way." -- Adria Kimbrough, Dillard University Mock Trial coach "This is a really great production that I encourage everyone to listen to no matter what. The stories being told by y’all are great and an amazing insight into what we do. Couldn’t be happier and honored to be in it!" -- Cole Davila, St. Mary's Law Trial Team "I’ve always struggled to be able to explain to someone the true magic that is coming together as a mock team (coaches and competitors). It’s hard to capture the joy and the heartbreak and why it all matters. I’m going to suggest all my students have their parents, spouses, etc. listen." -- Rhani Lott Choi. Education Director National Institute for Trial Advocacy Episodes Bonus: Life as a 1L Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with former Dillard students Amaya Ronczyk and Lajeanne Shelton. Amaya is currently a 1L at Harvard Law, and Lajeanne is a 1L at UC Hastings Law. They talk about their personal experiences as a first-year law student, along with giving some helpful advice for future students, going from an HBCU to a PWI, skills carried over from the Dillard Mock Trial team into their current courses, and some exciting news about this year’s Dillard case law. 15 Episode ​ Listen Now Bonus: Katie catches up with Brooklyn Law School A spate of recent Supreme Court decisions are eroding the civil rights of all Americans, especially women. Katie Phang checks in with the Brooklyn team to gauge their reactions to the overturning of Roe v Wade and other decisions. Listen to how these future lawyers plan to fight for and protect our rights. 7 Episode ​ Listen Now 8. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Matt Skinner and Tyler Volesky are sons of prominent defense attorneys in South Dakota who honor their Native American heritage by fighting for justice. Matt takes us inside the Minnehaha County Public Defender’s office, where he argues in real court on behalf of a Native client. Tyler is following in his father's footsteps in both law and politics. But first, he must overcome some obstacles in the world of mock trial. 8 Episode ​ Listen Now 11. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Mock trial is supposed to prepare you for a real trial. Andy and Jasmin are about to see if that’s true. They are going to face off in Bexar County Court for an actual case in front of a judge and jury. Special guests and law students from the various schools join in to share some of their favorite law tips and career advice. 11 Episode ​ Listen Now Bonus: Texas Tales - Checking in with AJ and Andy Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with St. Mary’s Law coach AJ Bellido de Luna and former student Andy Vizcarra. You’ll hear some of their personal experiences about being followed by the podcast production team, reflections on upsetting moments during last season’s tournaments, and exciting current news about the team. 14 Episode ​ Listen Now Class Action Trailer Class Action is a twelve-part podcast documentary series that tracks a diverse cast of outstanding law students who are battling it out in mock trial competitions across the country. Host Katie Phang takes you inside the high stakes world of mock trial competitions, where you'll follow the drama of four teams fighting to win the National Championship. 0 Episode ​ Listen Now 9. Survive and Advance Adria is a fan of the philosopher Nick Saban, the decorated coach of the Alabama football team. She and Judge Kern Reese want their team to stay focused, be clear and concise. Tight. She sends her team to an invitational in Houston to see who is ready for the big time in the spring. The results are mixed. Back home in New Orleans, the team rallies and punches their ticket to the Regional Championship. 9 Episode ​ Listen Now 12. The Promised Land For the first time in its history, Dillard sends a team to the National Tournament! Dozens of teams from around the country descend on Lancaster, PA, to not only admire the trophies, but to battle each other in the old courthouse. Adria has brought her team to the Promised Land in what will be her last tournament with the team. History will be made. 12 Episode ​ Listen Now Bonus: Home for the Holidays in the Valley In this bonus episode, Genesis Salinas, 2L, from St. Mary’s in San Antonio, Texas, takes us to her family’s home in the Rio Grande Valley. The Valley is at the southernmost point of Texas, at the meeting point of Mexico and the U.S., making it rich in history and culture. Genesis and her family share their holiday memories and traditions with cookies, arroz con leche, and a children’s Christmas carol. 13 Episode ​ Listen Now 7. Don’t Mess with Texas After a disappointing showing in the Battle of the Experts, the St. Mary's team is back together, determined to make a comeback. Mariela joins Andy, Jasmin and Cole, this time as an advocate. They pledge allegiance to Justice Sotomayor and Bad Bunny. The team is on the precipice of winning, only to face discrimination during a controversial semi-final round. Andy and her family celebrate El Grito. 7 Episode ​ Listen Now 10. Any Given Sunday It’s been a grueling season for AJ’s St. Mary’s squad. Spirits are low. Exhaustion has creeped in. The Regional Competition is around the corner – and the case packet has just dropped. If they win in Houston, they advance to Nationals. Lose, and they go home. And standing in their way is perennial nemesis, Baylor University. The odds are low, but when the finals are held on a Sunday, anything can happen. 10 Episode ​ Listen Now 1. Boot Camp for Lawyers The 100-degree heat in San Antonio won't stop St. Mary's University coach AJ Bellido de Luna from drilling his team on the fundamentals. “We’re going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students. These students are here to make a difference,” he says. And for coach Laura Rose at the University of South Dakota, being midwest nice has no place in a mock trial tournament. She lays down the law; “You guys are engaged in a highly competitive law school sport.” 1 Episode ​ Listen Now

All Posts Log in / Sign up Kevin Huffman Aug 23 5 min What's Up Law Students? If you’ve been listening to this series, then you know that law degrees are not handed out. Good lawyers put in the work. It’s a grind. ... 77 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Aug 17 3 min When Worlds Collide News came yesterday that Richard Glossip, who sits on death row in Oklahoma, was granted a reprieve by the Governor so his innocence case... 7 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Aug 9 3 min NEUROTIC EPISODIC What's up with this series? How are the episodes connected? Is there a method to the madness of putting this all together? We like to... 9 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Jul 28 2 min HARD KNOCKS FOR LAW STUDENTS Episodes 9 -12 of Class Action is where we put some of the action, in Class Action. These stories are meant to capture the sport of... 39 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Jul 25 1 min TRANSFORMERS After eight episodes we start to turn to the stretch run and focus on two teams -- Dillard University and St. Mary's. In Episode 9 we... 45 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jul 16 2 min Thanks for the Feedback on Episode 7 We've received some heartfelt feedback from several folks for our episode "Don't Mess with Texas" and we want to thank you all for... 15 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jul 5 2 min Respect for Authority? Well... I don't want you to think that I don't have respect for authority. But sometimes in this world of documentary making, a healthy... 13 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jun 30 3 min Why Did We Create This Podcast? There is not enough space to truly answer this question, but I can share the genesis story. I was talking with Marissa Boyers-... 18 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Jun 28 1 min We Need More Lawyers Like This ! Look at these faces. Young would-be lawyers from the Dillard University mock trial team. They (and the other law students in this... 27 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jun 28 2 min AN HISTORIC RUN Truth be told, the decision to profile the Dillard University mock trial team was done in desperation. One of our law school teams... 17 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Aug 23 5 min What's Up Law Students? If you’ve been listening to this series, then you know that law degrees are not handed out. Good lawyers put in the work. It’s a grind. ... 77 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Aug 17 3 min When Worlds Collide News came yesterday that Richard Glossip, who sits on death row in Oklahoma, was granted a reprieve by the Governor so his innocence case... 7 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Aug 9 3 min NEUROTIC EPISODIC What's up with this series? How are the episodes connected? Is there a method to the madness of putting this all together? We like to... 9 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Jul 28 2 min HARD KNOCKS FOR LAW STUDENTS Episodes 9 -12 of Class Action is where we put some of the action, in Class Action. These stories are meant to capture the sport of... 39 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Jul 25 1 min TRANSFORMERS After eight episodes we start to turn to the stretch run and focus on two teams -- Dillard University and St. Mary's. In Episode 9 we... 45 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jul 16 2 min Thanks for the Feedback on Episode 7 We've received some heartfelt feedback from several folks for our episode "Don't Mess with Texas" and we want to thank you all for... 15 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jul 5 2 min Respect for Authority? Well... I don't want you to think that I don't have respect for authority. But sometimes in this world of documentary making, a healthy... 13 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jun 30 3 min Why Did We Create This Podcast? There is not enough space to truly answer this question, but I can share the genesis story. I was talking with Marissa Boyers-... 18 views 0 comments 1 like. Post not marked as liked 1 Kevin Huffman Jun 28 1 min We Need More Lawyers Like This ! Look at these faces. Young would-be lawyers from the Dillard University mock trial team. They (and the other law students in this... 27 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked Kevin Huffman Jun 28 2 min AN HISTORIC RUN Truth be told, the decision to profile the Dillard University mock trial team was done in desperation. One of our law school teams... 17 views 0 comments Post not marked as liked

Acerca de About Class Action The Squads Meet the teams featured in Class Action St. Mary's University Led by coach AJ Bellido de Luna, this squad hails from San Antonio, Texas, and combines passion with hard work and good times. Brooklyn Law A student-coached all-female team of fierce advocates for social justice fights an Ivy League champion. University of South Dakota "Midwest nice" has been banished from a team that features four hard-nosed 3L's and pair of Native lawyers. Coach Laura Rose loves to sing. Dillard University Undergraduate mock trial team from New Orleans goes on a dramatic run to Nationals to honor their beloved coach Adria Kimbrough. Why Mock Trial? The young, would-be lawyers on Class Action are extraordinary. Bright. Ambitious. Sometimes ruthless. They are poised to enter a justice system that is under intense public scrutiny. And jury trials—a bedrock of a fair justice system—are declining in number. Prosecutors are aggressively pushing plea deals on defendants, whose lawyers (often untrained in courtroom procedure) are encouraging their clients to accept. But, in the wake of high-profile verdicts like the George Floyd case, trial advocacy training is gaining popularity in law schools. Mock trial tournaments are quickly becoming a necessary and exciting kind of collegiate sport. Approach Producers Lisa Gray and Kevin Huffman spent a year recording the grueling bootcamps, scrimmages and competitions with law teams from Brooklyn Law, St. Mary’s University in San Antonio, and the University of South Dakota. You will experience the young lawyers reach near-exhaustion arguing cases in high-stakes tournaments. The team also followed an undergraduate team from Dillard University in New Orleans, that recovered from the twin impacts of Covid-19 and Hurricane Ida to make a Cinderella run at the National championship. Katie Phang Host Katie Phang, a trial lawyer, Anchor and Host for MSNBC and Peacock, guides us through the series. Katie introduces us to students like Andy Vizcarra, a first-generation American whose parents emigrated from Mexico, and have worked tirelessly at their restaurant and in the medical field to put her through law school. And Tyler Volesky, a young Native American politician who is now a law student in South Dakota. During a fiery civil rights competition, we meet Ellie Sands and Anjani Shah—part of a team of activists from Brooklyn Law—who battle for justice not only in mock trial but in real-life legal clinics. The self-styled “church boy” from Houston, DeAndre K. Bell, plans to run for President in 2040. And the powerful lion of the Dillard team, Lajeanne Shelton, bristles at comments that she’s too aggressive in court. SOUND ARGUMENT Sound Argument is a new production company founded by us, Lisa Gray and Kevin Huffman. Our personal objective is to produce compelling, creative, informational and entertaining programming. ​ Class Action has inherent drama, tackles deep social issues, and tracks committed law students who will soon take on a deeply flawed justice system – exactly the kind of story we love to tell. ​ Between us, we have over thirty years of experience in the media industry, working on unique and significant projects, making engaging and enlightening works. Together, we co-produced the Netflix feature documentary Tony Robbins: I Am Not Your Guru , and collaborated on a 9-episode series, The System with Joe Berlinger . Lisa produced and Kevin wrote the podcast series A Good End . ​ We hope you love listening to Class Action as much as we loved making it. Kevin Huffman Producer, Director, Writer Kevin is a creative and experienced storyteller. Over the course of his 20+ year career he has produced, directed and written dozens of documentaries for Netflix, Showtime, HBO, TNT, A&E, Discovery and National Geographic. Several of his most successful documentary series, like The Innocence Files , have explored the deep problems facing the criminal justice system in America. For that series, the team embedded the Conviction Integrity Unit in Philadelphia, documenting the re-investigation and exoneration of a man wrongfully imprisoned for 28 years. Killing Richard Glossip took viewers inside death row in Oklahoma and Hard Time was an immersive look behind the bars of several prisons in Ohio. The series Judgment Da y explored the challenges and flaws in the parole systems in Colorado and Wyoming and After the First 48 followed the trials of accused homicide defendants in Memphis, Dallas and Louisville. He is presently Senior Story producer for The Lincoln Project for Showtime. ​ Learn more at DocStory911 . Lisa Gray Producer, Editor, Consultant Lisa is a seasoned non-fiction director, producer, developer, project supervisor, and audio engineer. For over twenty years she’s pursued unique and significant projects, collaborating with clients to make engaging and enlightening works. In that time, she’s created documentaries for many of the top broadcasters including NPR, Microsoft, iHeartMedia, American Public Media, A&E, PBS, PRX, Al Jazeera America, National Geographic Channel, Discovery, OWN, Spike, Logo, Lifetime, Food Network, HBO Documentaries, The Weather Channel, ABC News, Participant Media, Magnolia Pictures, and Sony Pictures Classics. ​ Learn more at Sound Mind Productions . Team Story Producers Jennifer Swann , Kristen Cabrera , Jason Foster , and Wendy Nardi Field Producers Kristen Cabrera , Jason Foster , Paul Ebsen , Malia Lukomski , Alredo De La Garza , Nikka Troy , and Matt Wymer Sound Recordists Alredo De La Garza , Paul Ebsen , Scott Anderson, Dave Novak , Taylor Ebsen, Matt Wymer , Davis Land , Thomas Walsh, Derek Roque, Avi Weider , Joe Maggio, Lauren Banjo , and Jonathan Clement. Loggers Claire Reynolds , Stevie Manns , Mary Mathis , and Rebecca Tauber Sound design, editing and mixing Lisa Gray, Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine Legal Representation Bianca Grimshaw at Granderson Des Rochers Representation by Elise Bergerson, Verve Literary and Talent Agency