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< Back Episode 3 3. Mob Hits and the H-E-B Air date: June 14, 2022 “Never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut.” The first big tournament of the season is a murder case based on the plot of Martin Scorsese’s Goodfellas. The teams are practicing saying “consigliere” and figuring out what the difference is between a “capo” and a “soldier.” In between we get a lesson on South Dakota geography (cowboy hats out west), and take a trip to H.E.B. (el Heb) for triple shot espressos. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: Battle of the Experts Case File: Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Thomas Santosusso St. Mary's University Law School University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law Elie Honig Drexel University Thomas R. Kline School of Law Up Against the Mob with Elie Honig Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com . Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT Katie Phang (narration): Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Tyler Volesky: To give you a little background on South Dakota geography, you have what you call about two urban areas. Sioux Falls, you've been to Sioux Falls. That's the big city. It's a small city or a big town, but it's the big urban area of South Dakota. That's where about a quarter of the population is, and then out west, you have Rapid City. That's about 80,000 people. Braedon Houdek: I grew up in Rapid City, South Dakota. It was nice. It was pretty relaxed, not a lot went on. So, I don't mean to make it sound like it was boring, but it was definitely very, just very relaxed. My dad is the general manager for RDO Equipment, which is a John Deere dealership. And my mom drives school buses for the Rapid City School System, but she's done a ton of stuff throughout her life. I grew up in a family of five, my mom and my dad, and I have an older sister, who's 30, and a younger brother, who just turned 22. Matt Skinner: I'm the oldest of nine children. So I have eight younger siblings and I've always had this role model slash lookout for them. And I want to make sure that they're okay in life and that they're doing the right things. So by being a lawyer, I can apply that to other people. I can look out for other people. Tyler Volesky: But the cultural divide in South Dakota is East River, West River. That's more ranching out there, so you see more cowboy hats and that kind of stuff, where here it's more farming, so it's a little bit different culture. Where I'm from, it's considered one of the big towns. You got about seven, eight towns within that 15 to 20,000, and then every place else is pretty rural. Baylie Moravec: I'm a listener as opposed to being the first to speak. I think people talk too much sometimes. And I think we miss a lot of stuff when we're talking. So I'd kind of rather listen and take everything in and then add in an opinion. I'm a first-generation lawyer. So no one in my family has gone to law school. So this has been a fun, new adventure for all of us, I guess. Matt Skinner: I'm also Catholic. And I am really involved in my faith. I think it's important to do that work through the criminal justice system. And also, I'm Native American, and here in South Dakota, there's a lot of issues, especially on the Western side of the state with Native Americans and their treatment over the years and their problems that they struggle with. Braedon Houdek: My parents had to see a bankruptcy lawyer at one point and ultimately it saved their house, so that's something that really stuck with me when I was pretty young. So I started working as soon as I could apply for a work license in Iowa. I started off by detasseling corn. I did that every summer until I was old enough to get an actual job. Tyler Volesky: And you got Vermillion here, it's about 10,000 people, but with Vermillion, it's pretty much just a college town. I think the population doubles when the college gets here. Baylie Moravec: I went to undergrad at the University of South Dakota. So by the time all is said and done, I'll have spent seven years in this town and on this campus. And I can't tell you how much I'm dreading leaving Vermillion, it has truly become home. Tyler Volesky: I mean, South Dakota culture in general, people are nice, they're reserved, you don't see a ton of characters or big colorful personalities like you do in the city. They're very conservative people, don't have the most open-minded world view generally, because it's a small state, you're not around a lot, but I think people have good intentions here, they're good people. I mean, nobody's really going to spit in your face and slam the door on you. Laura Rose: We are the state's law school. Katie Phang (narration): Laura Rose, the feisty University of South Dakota coach has already uploaded the fact pattern to her entire team. Laura Rose: There was a quote that my dad used to use at Stetson when he was running their program. He used to tell people that when I send you out to a competition, I am putting the reputation of my school in your hands. If you drop the reputation of my school, I will cut your hands off. Now he can get away with that because he is a 22-year military veteran. Katie Phang (narration): Law school mock trial season it's like a hurricane and it's fast approaching. Laura Rose: Here's the deal, I'm not going to cut your hands off, but we're going to have to talk. Katie Phang (narration): Tryouts are over, a team is hand-picked. Classes are already in full swing. The law school grind, it's on. Laura Rose: But you're in a competition setting. There is no time to be Midwest nice. I love South Dakota nice and Midwest nice. One of my favorite things about this area of the country is how polite people are and how much people care about other people, but you know where it doesn't have a place in a courtroom. We're here to argue, we're here to argue about facts. You are not my friend. You're not my enemy, I don't have to cut your throat, precisely. Most of the time. Katie Phang (narration): Dozens of schools around the country are preparing for the fall invitational tournaments, where second- and third-year law students get a chance to compete before the big national competitions start in the spring. Laura Rose: But I do have to make sure that you're following through with what it is that I need done. And I do have to make sure that you're complying with the rules. And I do have to make sure that I am not, in an attempt to be kind and to be polite, actually giving away points of argumentation. [music; mid-temp hip-hop positive triumphant groove] Katie Phang (narration): I'm Katie Phang and this is Class Action. Episode three, Mob Hits and the HEB. Laura Rose: Tyler, you look confused. What's up? Katie Phang (narration): It's 8 AM and everyone is working together to build an airtight case. Picture an old-fashioned barn raising on the prairie. Only this barn is cobbled together with arguments and legal strategy. Tyler Volesky: Nick, he owed me $200,000. Nick's a bad guy, he's a drug user. A lot of problems, that you can attack his credibility and then you also got the bartender, who's a good witness, he's a law student, very credible kid. And he was saying, "Tommy is peaceful. Tommy's a very peaceful guy, and he's generous." Laura Rose: Oh, 3L's. You all made faces when he said the word peaceful. Why did we make faces? Justin? If you say peaceful in your opening, what have you done? Justin Petereit: You have opened the door to character evidence. Laura Rose: To what? To character evidence, but you don't know yet, because you're a baby too, all right. If you get a criminal fact pattern, there is an instinctive desire to start to humanize your client, which you can do, but you got to watch the adjectives because if I say he's peaceful and if there's any evidence that he's not, what am I doing? I am giving the state attorney the moment, I am giving Braedon the moment to get up and go, "Hey, you just said that you love peace and love and all happiness. You were in the fricking mob. You were doing this. You were with these people, you were doing this." You're giving the opportunity to pounce. Tyler Volesky: He said he would never kill somebody. He had to beat some people up because he was... That's the business he was in, but... Laura Rose: So he's not going to go full wise guy. He's not going to be a made man, he's not going to burn the car to the saint in his hands... Katie Phang (narration): Case file, Commonwealth versus Santosuosso. A mock trial case torn out of the script of a grizzly mafia murder story. It's a movie plot, and one you may be familiar with. Philip Pasquarello: I've always wanted to do a mob case and there's not really ever been one that's done at any level of mock trial. My name's Phil Pasquarello. I'm the trial competition director at Drexel University, Thomas R. Kline School of Law and the tournament director for the Battle of the Experts. So the Battle of the Experts is a national mock trial competition where 16 law schools compete to be the national champion of the Battle of the Experts. [traditional Italian folk music] Philip Pasquarello: So this year's case is loosely based on the plot of Goodfellas , changed the names of the characters and the story's slightly different than what you'd see in the movie for lots of reasons. I hope, knock on wood, we're in the clear there. I think Marty's got bigger things to do than read our case file, but I hope he reads it, that'd be excellent. Philip Pasquarello: [sound effects, bar scene, two men fighting] There's a classic scene where the character played by Joe Pesci is insulted in a bar and he and the character played by Ray Liotta kill that person, kill that character. Character's name is Billy Batts. Elie Honig: It's still my favorite mob movie for sure. Nothing has come close. My name is Elie Honig. I spent 14 years as a prosecutor. But yes, I spent most of my career in the Southern District of New York indicting, prosecuting and trying real life New York City mobsters. That is a great murder scenario for a mock trial because it's not your obvious premeditated murder. That was not supposed to happen. When they're done beating him to death, I think the De Niro character sort of says to the Pesci character, "What'd you do?" I think that's a great scenario because then you have to argue things like intent and premeditation and what degree of murder are we in here? Is it manslaughter? Is it murder? So that's a good scenario because I think there are arguments to be made, but you're getting into trickier issues that would be argued at a real trial. The purpose of mock trial, I think, is to get kids interested in this, to get students wanting to do this in their future careers. And what are you going to do? Try some boring fraud case that's based on tax law and accounting? No. Give them an interesting case, give them an exciting case, give them something out of a movie and that'll spark their interest. Katie Phang (narration): Laura Rose has handpicked four of her top students to argue this case: Baylie Moravec and Justin Petereit will defend Tommy Santosuosso. Baylie Moravec: What happens is this guy, William Cafiero. We call him Billy. Billy goes to a bar, he gets out of jail, and he kind of needs to reestablish his boss presence. And Tommy Santosuosso and Nick Patrick arrive. Everyone knows each other, but Tommy's trying to get out of the mafia. He's still in the mafia, but Tommy just wants to be respected because who doesn't want to be? Katie Phang (narration): Braedon Houdek and Bill Murray, not that Bill Murray, will prosecute Tommy. Braedon Houdek: When I first read this fact pattern, for example, I thought the state slightly had the edge, and then I kept reading it, and then I thought the defense was going to blow us out of the water. And then I kept reading it and I realized maybe the state actually has the better case. Baylie Moravec: And so when Billy starts shoving it in his face that he used to be a chauffeur, Tommy gets mad. They start a brawl, and after this bar fight, then it's only Nick and Billy. And that's all we really know from there. That's what we know for sure. They walk out of the bar together and you know that Billy's dead. Braedon Houdek: It's just kind of always a work in progress. It's important never to get too in love with a certain theme or theory, because you can always think of something that completely derails everything that you just built. Katie Phang (narration): The rest of the team is spread out in the peanut gallery of the law school's practice court, firing potshots at the new case. Laura Rose: As she's going through it, does it make sense? Does it make sense with what you've read? And what questions is it leaving you with as you're hearing it for the first time? tell me what you're thinking about. Male Student: So I texted Baylie this as well, but it probably goes both ways. The knife is under the assumption that it's the mother's knife, the knife that she regularly uses. So where's her prints? On the other flip side though, the prosecution say the knife is wiped. There is no prints now because they're trying to cover it. Laura Rose: Did you have that? Matt Skinner: This might be a stretch, but I was going to say who's to say that when he left the bar the first time he didn't take Nicky's car. If his car is parked there, but further away he could have taken Nicky's car, or I don't remember what I was thinking. Laura Rose: Wait, Matt. Braedon, go ahead. Braedon Houdek: He still didn't go back to the bar, which is where Tommy's car would've been. So even if you were to have taken him back to his car and not home, the cell phone records still don't show that. Laura Rose: There's not a place for him to have been dropped off? Braedon Houdek: Yeah, I don't know. Female Student: I was just say... Braedon Houdek: I can't say it's comfortable. It's definitely not comfortable. You put a lot of work into your theory, in your case, and then it's easy to kind of get upset when someone tries to poke holes in it. Though it's a team sport, it can quickly feel very personal. Katie Phang: So Laura, during boot camp, it looks as if you're taking all of the students that you're working with and you're having them hive mind this problem that they've been presented with. Can you walk us through that method and that procedure and why you think it's effective to be able to give them a foundation to work from? Laura Rose: The reason for the hive mind, with the Battle of the Experts fact pattern in particular, came about for a few reasons. Number one, it's a great way to knock the rust off from the summer. It's a great way to get started and get going and get everybody back to thinking about those things. Number two, it's a great way for the students that are so deeply entrenched with the fact pattern to realize, hey, the thing that you thought was very clear, isn't clear from your presentation. That inference that you thought was so obvious, isn't actually as obvious as you want to make it be. Laura Rose: Tyler? Tyler (male student): Is it a good idea? Because I'm just thinking about this. What Matt's really saying here is, if you can say that he was here for these parts and say, are there some fuzzy inconsistencies? Yes. But remember he's not a saint, he's a drug addict and drug dealer. Was he high on heroin when he was doing this? I don't know. But is there enough to say, yeah, there's some inconsistencies, but do we think he did it? You're reasonable members of the jury, I'd say yes, and then just kind of blur up... Katie Phang: So is it a combination of a confidence builder, an icebreaker, a substantive dive into the law and the evidence and the rules of procedure kind of all in one? Laura Rose: Yeah, it's everything. It's a kitchen sink kind of approach. It's trial and that's why it's wonderful because you have to deal with the facts, the law, the rules. Male Student: But Tommy, on the other hand, he's smart. He's methodical. He knows what he's doing, but it's kind of ironic that our star witness has all the things that make him look like the bad guy. Katie Phang (narration): In San Antonio, Jasmin Olguin has finally managed to stream Martin Scorsese's mob classic, Goodfellas , one of my favorites. Anyway, her St. Mary's University teammates, Andy Vizcarra and Cole Davila, they feel like it's their legal obligation to break down the plot. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. And the movie Tommy didn't like... Cole Davila: Definitely did it. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah, but in the movie, even in the movie, I was like, Mariele Encinas: I saw casino and was like, "Oh, so Tommy did it, he did it." Cole Davila: And then somebody came up and shot him too. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. Mariela Encinas: I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That didn't happen. Not in our story. They're adding a third person up in this joint. Cole Davila: There you go. He's there. Mariela Encinas: He killed Billy. When he walks in- Andy Vizcarra: You didn't see anybody there. Jasmin Olguin: That's a good movie. Jimmy deserved better. I'm just saying. I'm going to pretend Jimmy's Tommy tomorrow. Die for this man. That's not very professional, okay. Jury, members of the jury. I'm sorry. I'm going to start, but I'm just trying to really think about this. Andy Vizcarra: No, you're good. Jasmin Olguin: Let me get on this vibe. Jasmin Olguin: I'm going to kill... Let me start that again. I'm sorry. That sounded weird. I'm going to kill this bastard. I'm going to kill you, you fake tough guy. Those were the last words that the defendant told Billy Caffiero the night that he was murdered. It's a dark night in Sienna, Pennsylvania, and while walking on the street, you see a bar to the right. It's called the Bamboo Lounge. And from afar, you think it's just a mom-and-pop little bar, something quiet. But inside that bar is a whole nother story. Inside that bar, it's another world of people. They have a code. Violence, drugs, money and family above all. Breaking that code can cost you your life. They make money from prostitution, loan sharking, theft and extortion. Now these families have a hierarchy. It goes boss, under boss, consigliere, capos, associates and soldiers. And these are the types of people that you will find at the Bamboo Lounge. When you walk inside, the first person... Jason Goss: So, I really like the story. Katie Phang (narration): That's Jason Goss. He's a St. Mary's grad and a trial team legend. Jason tried cases for the Bexar County DA's office, but then he left to join his old boss and take up for the defense. Jason Goss: Now, when you got towards the end, you just started basically reading it. It was like, blah, da, da, da, some things never change. Katie Phang (narration): In whatever spare time Jason manages to get, he and his wife, Maritza, who's expecting their first baby, coached the battle team. Jasmin Olguin: Sorry. I felt like it was too long and I was boring you guys. Jason Goss: It is too long. But the only reason is, and the reason why it felt that way is because you did something that's, it's kind of rare in mock trial. You wove all what the witnesses were going to say into the story, which is cool. But one of the things I noticed was is you're talking about grab, he had the knife, he stabbed once, he stabbed twice, three times. You need to talk about it like that. He got the knife. He stabbed him once, he stabbed him twice, he stabbed him three times, nine inches deep right into his heart. Something like that. Drama, add a little bit. Maritza Stewart: I like it. Keep going. Jasmin Olguin: I'm Jasmin Olguin, and I'm a 3L. I’m not doing too well today. I have cold brew just running through my veins right now. Probably going to get two to three hours of sleep. I already told Andy, she sees me tomorrow she didn't see me because... First two weeks I was dressing up nice, and tomorrow it's going to be bad. And I'm working on top of this, and I think that's what killing me, because I don't have that extra free time. Andy VIzcarra: Yeah. I don't know how Jasmin's living right now. I got a sabbatical for my job because I physically could not do everything. She is not human. She's not real. Jasmin Olguin: But my job keeps me sane. When I'm there, I love it. I'm not worried about anything. I'm like I'm here, it's just I wish there was more time in the week. Katie Phang: So Laura, when you perceive from some of the students, the ones that maybe you predict are going to have a struggle after law school, do you pivot a little bit and maybe give a little bit more of yourself, maybe a little bit more mentoring, maybe a little bit more individualized attention to maybe get them more prepared for what the real world's going to be like? Laura Rose: I try to do that with all of my students in all honesty. And it's one of the things that I'm really fortunate with being here at South Dakota, because I have the number of students that I interact with. I'm very closely involved with all of my trial team members, and I get to do that individualized attention that you're talking about, but you can always pick out those one or two where it's like, "Hey, you're going to need a little bit of extra coaching or a little bit of extra support. My office is a safe space for you." Baylie Moravec: One of the biggest obstacles that I see in a lot of my friends at school and in myself is that imposter syndrome that most women have, where it's like, you don't realize that you are smart enough or think you have the best argument. And there's always kind of a push to be better without accepting that you're already good. Laura Rose: Yeah. Baylie Moravec: And that's been one of the hardest things to overcome in advocacy is knowing like, okay, my argument is good. My style is good. Now I just need to trust it, but make it better. Laura Rose: And that's the thing, right? And I will empathize with you on the imposter syndrome point and tell you it's not something that goes away. I've got it horribly bad. My friends love to laugh at me because every other week I'm like the law school's going to fire me. I'm going to lose my job. And they're like in what world? And I'm like, somebody's going to see through that I have clearly just faked it till I made it at this point. Baylie Moravec: One of the things about being a female advocate that I found challenging until, well, still find challenging, but less challenging after working with you is I think the practice of law has had maybe kind of aggressive and straightforward and loud and boisterous and all of these kinds of different qualities that you see in all the movies that lawyers portray. But being a female advocate, as you said, we have a different skillset. And in trial tech, I got a lot of comments about being too gentle or motherly or I speak too soft or something. And it kind of leads you to a different skillset of how you take those kinds of things and then make them better in your advocacy and make them dangerous in a courtroom. And I think that's one of the coolest things that I see women advocates do is you kind of know where they're going, but you don't know how that final cut in- Laura Rose: Sneaky. Baylie Moravec: Yes. So sneaky. Laura Rose: And here's the thing. I think that part of the reason that we've had to become that is because the idea that if you're aggressive as a woman, you're going to get labeled as a “bitch”. But number one, that's not necessarily true. The jury will give you leeway if the witness is being ridiculous. The more unreasonable they get, the more reasonable that you get, unless you have to do the control. And then it shows the jury, "I've got the range to go there. I'm choosing not to go there because I know I'm more effective when I take these different approaches," and that's not a bad thing. The thing that you get to figure out now is what your range truly is. You figured out a couple of octaves that you're comfortable singing in to make the analogy work, but you can expand out of that. AJ Bellido de Luna: We bring to the room our own biases and beliefs. And if you don't understand that when you're an attorney standing up and presenting to a jury that is going to decide the facts of your case, you will always lose. Katie Phang (narration): For trial team director AJ Bellido de Luna, running a trial program means keeping track of several competition teams. AJ Bellido de Luna: The thing that has to be at the forefront of your mind from beginning to end, trust me, they are watching every little thing that you are doing. Every little thing that you are doing. Katie Phang (narration): It means coaching up the younger lawyers and trial advocacy classes, but also looking out for promising rookies. Mariela Encinas: Your Honor, opposing counsel, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. She couldn't escape. She wanted to leave, but she couldn't. He would not have it, so instead he killed her. Katie Phang (narration): Rookies like Mariela Encinas, the second-year lawsuit from Tucson who knocked it out of the park in boot camp. This is her first opening statement in what may prove to be a very promising legal career. Mariela Encinas: October 14th, 2019 starts as a typical day for Detective LaVelle. He goes into the office, probably grabs some coffee, sits at his desk, when the phone rings. Someone tells him that a body was found at the marsh. Unfortunately, in Detective LaVelle's line of work, this isn't uncommon. So he treats it just like any other homicide. He goes to the scene, he examines the scene. He examines the body, suspects foul play. And that's when it hits him. That's when he makes the connection. He realizes Molly didn't go missing just randomly three years ago. She didn't just run away from the defendant. The defendant killed her. Thank you. Professor Steven A. Lopez: Great job, Mariela. Katie Phang (narration): This is assistant coach Steven Lopez. Professor Steven A. Lopez: Really love your presence and your poise up there. You're not moving around. You're very strong. You're very powerful. Your voice fills this entire room, which is awesome. Your theme that she couldn't escape, right? It's okay. It's not punchy. It's not really catchy, but I think the bigger problem with it is you didn't really use it. If that's your theory and that's your theme, then you got to play that through your whole opening. Great job. AJ Bellido de Luna: I have something I want to add. I can see in your face disappointment. I can see it because you just got criticized pretty heavily. Mariela Encinas: Yeah. AJ Bellido de Luna: And you don't like it. Mariela Encinas: I mean, I take criticism. Well, it just- AJ Bellido de Luna: But you don't like it. Mariela Encinas: Yeah. You want to be perfect all the time, but it's just not a thing. AJ Bellido de Luna: So I want you to hear something. I sent him a text. What did that text say? Steven Lopez: I didn't read it. My phone's off, sir. AJ Bellido de Luna: Read it out to her. Steven Lopez: She is a champion in waiting. AJ Bellido de Luna: I see in your face where you're feeling failure. I see in your face where you're like, "Damn, I didn't do it right. I didn't meet the expectation." It's not good enough yet, but there's great stuff there. So don't get discouraged when you get these comments. We're never going to tell you that you're good enough until you're good enough. And you know when you're good enough? When you bring home a national championship like he did. Mariela Encinas: Okay. Small burden. [laughter] AJ Bellido de Luna: When we put your trophy in the trophy case, that's when we stop saying things to you. It's like, you tell me what we're going to do now. All right. That's when you're good enough. So great job. Now you can give her applause. [applause] Mariela Encinas: Last week was probably my most stressful week so far, more and more things to do, and as we get deeper into classes, it gets a little more time consuming. Also I was asked to practice with Coach Stewart and Coach Goss as a witness for their Battle of the Experts competition. So I was really excited when I got the email. It was AJ who emailed me. I was really excited. He let me know that this means I'm doing well. He also told me, don't let this get to your head. This isn't a golden ticket. You know we're offering you this opportunity contingent on you doing well in Trial Ad and keeping up the work. It's definitely been a whirlwind of craziness. I haven't even finished my evidence class. This is going to be very scary. Cole Davila: I’m Cole Davila. I'm a 3L. I definitely feel a ton of pressure because I have experience. I should be better in theory. I should be really good and should be able to not necessarily carry the team, but at least do a really good part. But because of that competitive nature, you always feel like you're not there. We had practice yesterday that was a full sort of round. And I didn't think I did as well as I should have. I messed up some really basic stuff that I know better than to do. I missed certain cues for things. I missed objections, stuff that I shouldn't have screwed up. And we have a couple weeks, two, three weeks to prepare and hone that in. So it definitely, that pressure gets to you. And there's a lot more pressure on it because all the leaders of the program are on this specific team. So it makes you want to be better, but it also, it makes you really hard on yourself and does take a mental toll, which is probably a good thing that law schools' competitions don't go all year. I have a meeting with my counselor later on today. I haven't spoken to her in a long time, and I've had to keep putting it off due to how busy I've been. But in general it seems like everybody's noticed everyone's mental health is sort of collapsing far more than it was our 1L year. So I think people seem to be just generally worse off. And I think it's a mix of continuing pandemic, returning to classes, knowing that the Bar's coming up. It started 1L year. I mean, I saw counselors periodically in undergrad, dealing with stresses and some medical issues that threw me off. So I saw her regularly, but since things have gotten worse, decided to pick it up a little bit again, just to at least have a third party, to be able to vent to. Talking to your friends is great, but if your friends are going through the same things you are, it does feel kind of weird to complain to them, because they're not complaining to you. They get it. They know where everybody's at. They're dealing with the same stuff, but here you are complaining to them. It feels weird, even though they don't mind, it just doesn't feel quite as effective and it's just off. Katie Phang: So Elie, what advice do you have to guard against the burnout that does happen in the business? Elie Honig: Don't do mock trial. [laugh] No, I'm only half kidding. Look, when you're on trial, it's all consuming, real trial. There's just no way around that. It devours your life. I will speak from my experience. You ignore your kids. You don't take care of yourself in terms of what you eat and you sleep. And I think that mock trial, from what I've seen, can be similar on these kids and on these students. And I don't have an easy solution to that. I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they do mock trial and also keep up with their classes and their social activities and their other activities that they're trying to do at school. So God bless them. It wasn't for me. If I had to give advice, I guess I would just try to say, don't let it invade your dreams. Try to put it in a box, put it to the side, and keep in mind, as much as it can feel all-consuming and competitive, it is a mock trial and you don't have someone's actual liberty at stake or the family of a murder victim at stake. So take a breath, keep it in perspective, but God bless you for doing it. Laura Rose: [singing] “Everything has its season. Everything has its time...” Katie Phang (narration): Somewhere. There must be footage of a young Laura Rose on stage. Laura Rose: I can't do any more than that because my voice is going to bother me too much. From the time that I was very small. I loved musical theater in particular, and I blame my parents for this because they took me to see Little Shop of Horrors when I was two. I fell in love with the storytelling element of that particular world. And when dad was first in the military and when I was younger and we would drive everywhere, he would play musical soundtracks. And the storytelling aspect of that for me was everything. Part of my plan was I wanted to work for Children's Television Workshop. And so that's where I wanted to be. But I knew that if I couldn't make it work and I was going to become a financial burden to my parents at that point, I couldn't justify it in my own head. Laura Rose: I graduated from college in May of 2009. I was two years behind when I should have been because my mom got sick before I went to school. She has MS, and I stayed home to help out with the family with that. I said, I can't, I can't do it as much as I want to, as much as I would've loved to go there. And so it was better to go with a practical thing to have the thing that I knew could feed me and then find a way for my creative love to become a part of that. And I got really lucky. I got really, really lucky and found a way to do it. The reason I was comfortable going to law school is I knew that the law school that I had chosen was the one that was going to make me an advocate, which meant that I was going to get to take my talents and all these things that I'd spent time developing and use them for the betterment of other people. It's just not the way that I thought it would happen. I thought I would be in the courtroom trying cases all the time. And in reality, I'm much better suited to what I'm doing now, which is taking the next generation and saying, you go do it. If I am successful and get tenure here, I could stay here for the rest of my academic career. If I do that, I will know at the end of my career, that for 30 plus years, I will have put out every single advocate that's come out of University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law. So I will know that the evidentiary issues in courtrooms across the state are being handled in a way that's appropriate. I will know that the people who are advocating in courtrooms have been trained this way, and it's going to change the legal landscape here because it's desperately needed. Katie Phang (narration): The clock is ticking and Coach Rose needs to whip her team into shape for the Battle of the Experts. Laura Rose: Good morning. Good morning. Good morning gang. Katie Phang (narration): And for all of the competitions that are coming in the fall. Laura Rose: Get your coffee, get your caffeine in drink. Make sure that you're awake. We will get through today as quickly as we possibly can. Y'all know that I'm all about efficiency in making sure that we don't waste our time. And I know that you have other things that you've got to do, but today what we're going to be covering, we're going to talk about cross examination, which is everybody in this room knows is my absolute favorite thing that we end up doing in a courtroom because it's when you have the most control. So are we all clear about what we're doing this morning? Are we awake? Vaguely. 3Ls, let's go around the room. What's your favorite part about cross examination? Justin? Justin Petereit: The thing I like about it the most is I feel like I'm in control and no matter how hard they're trying to squirm out of things or if they're trying to be cute with me, it's an easy situation to flip that back on them. Laura Rose: Matt you've had trial tech. What's your favorite thing about cross? Matt Skinner: The power, I like the power behind it. Katie Phang (narration): This is Matt Skinner, a future defense attorney and the team's best sniper. Laura Rose: Be honest, man. Let's go for it. Come on, talk about it. Why do you like the power? What about that is good? Matt Skinner: I like the power and forever I've called it the oh shit moment. Like Ian said, you just lay these breadcrumbs and eventually it leads to this trap where the witness is like, "Oh shit, I'm stuck. I don't know it to do here." Yeah. I like the power of having control, basically. You now, what's going to happen. They don't. And eventually you're going to lead that witness to do exactly what you want. Baylie Moravec: I think one of the most intimidating things that you can't really do on Zoom, but they call it working the well. So your well is kind of right in front of the judge and the witness table here. Coach Rose teaches us how to walk your dog in the well. And when you have an unfriendly witness, when you start kind of cornering them on a point, you start walking towards them and you keep the eye contact. And as you keep asking questions, you keep taking more and more steps. And once you've kind of cracked on a major point, you just turn your back to them and walk away. But it's one of the most kind of powerful moments that you can have in a courtroom. You know when you go to the zoo and you turn your back to like all the monkeys and they get mad, that's kind of what walking the dog is like. Katie Phang (narration): Hour after hour, Coach Rose puts her team through a crash course on trial techniques. Laura Rose: So if you get somebody on the stand who says, "Well, Sally told me that Billy Bob told her..." Objection, Your Honor, hearsay within hearsay, may we approach? Katie Phang (narration): All in the service of building a stronger case for the Battle of the Experts competition. Laura Rose: Your Honor, under federals of- Katie Phang (narration): And in the process, knocking the South Dakota nice out of her young lawyers on the team. Laura Rose: Why is it unfairly prejudicial? Why is that the case? Explain it. Draw it for me in crayons if you fricking have to, but explain it. If it's egregious, if it touches upon a fundamental right, in particular, if we are in Battle of the Experts and Justin hears them say that the defendant for sure is going to say something, he's going to be up off of his chair having a heart attack, but he's going to make the objection and make sure that it's on the record because fundamental rights, constitutional issues, things that could get people into prison if we were in real life, you got to be mad about that. And you gotta be big mad. You've got to say that it's wrong and you've got to call it out for being wrong. Elie Honig: When I was getting ready to do my first ever jury address as a prosecutor, I asked my supervisor, who had been doing it for a decade plus, I said, "This is a stupid question, but what am I supposed to be tomorrow when I give this opening?" And he said, "What do you mean?" I said, "I don't know, what's the vibe? What am I trying to do? Am I trying to be tough guy or cool or what?" And he said, "Look, as the prosecutor, your job is two things, to be clear and credible and that's it. Leave the dramatics to the defense lawyer, leave the pounding of the podium and the clever stories to the defense lawyer. That's not for you. Your job is to stand up in front of that jury, to be clear, they understand what your case is about, and to be credible. They believe you. They believe our evidence. That's it." I was once told, a friend of mine said, "I figured out your style." I said, "Okay, what is it?" He said, "You're Jersey conversational." I'm from New Jersey. And I said, "Oh." I don't know that he meant it as a compliment. I think he meant it like I'm not super intellectual, but I said, "Perfect. That's great. That's what I want to be." Part of the beauty of our jury system is I think people tend to think our jury system is mechanical or mathematical, but in fact, every judge instructs every jury, use your common sense. Use your good everyday common sense that you use every day out there. And it can really resonate with the jury. And you say, "Why would this defendant take this action? Look, you all know, you're all human beings. You've all been in scenarios where someone has insulted you. You know how that maybe made you feel now you didn't act on it, but he did." You can use common sense type arguments like that. And it's part of the beauty of our jury system, and it can be quite effective in advocacy. Andy Vizcarra: H.E.B. should be right up there. Katie Phang (narration): Back in San Antonio, the team piles into Andy's car. They're not searching for facts. They're hunting down snacks, brain food for a tournament that will stretch over three marathon days. Cole Davila: My grandmother calls it “cheebee.” Andy Vizcarra: It's better than “El Heb.” Mariela Encinas: My dad calls it “Heb.” Andy Vizcarra: Okay. So focus. We need energy drinks. I'm probably going to [crosstalk]. We need them for tomorrow, because we're not going to have time to go get coffee in the morning. I'll probably get the double shot espressos from Starbucks. Like a pack of them. We also need snacks because. Jasmin Olguin. I have water bottles. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. We need water bottle... Oh. Jasmin Olguin: Way to hog all the water. Mariela Encinas: So when I go home, this is what I miss the most. Jasmin Olguin: Yay. For sure. Andy Vizcarra: Okay. So Jasmin wants mocha. I want vanilla. I do the double shot ones or I mean there's triple shot, but I'll be bouncing off the fricking walls with that. Mariela Encinas: These kept me alive my 1L year. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah, the triple shot ones? There you go. All right. I think we're good. I got snacks. We got drinks. Ready to go? Mariela Encinas: Yeah. Let's roll out. Andy Vizcarra: You want to give your opening right now? Jasmin Olguin: What? Here in front of everybody? Mariela Encinas: Do it. If you can do it here, you can do it anywhere. Andy Vizcarra: There's no better way to get over your fear than just doing it. [crosstalk 00:41:09]. Cole Davila: Yeah. Get on the intercom: Andy Vizcarra: Some things are too good to be true. Yeah. Get on the intercom. Jasmin Olguin: You want me to do it now or not? Andy Vizcarra: No, I want you to do it at the hotel and get animated. I'm going to write all the sayings. Mariela Encinas: Oh my God. I didn't even remember that. It was my car. [car drives away] [knock on hotel room door] Jason Goss: Come on in, come on in. Katie Phang (narration): Coach Jason Goss is waiting at the hotel. Jason Goss: So the way that it was described in the coaches' meeting is not if you plan to use any character evidence of Tommy, if you plan to use any character evidence at all for any witness. Andy Vizcarra: My entire Nick Patrick cross. Jason Goss: Right. Andy Vizcarra: The opening? Jason Goss: Well, so the idea is and what they were talking about... Katie Phang: So Jason, how do you help these students get over their nerves? Jason Goss: What I always tell them is you're going to, you're going to have it. It's there. I used to throw up before these things, I always did. And I don't now, but I tell you what, I mean, I’ve tried 150 cases and I will still feel so nervous every time I do an opening or every time I do a cross examination. So I don't really know how to tell them because it's kind of how they do it. Jason Goss: I'll tell you that tomorrow, the first round we are going against University of Chicago-Kent. So those are your advocates. Those are your witnesses. You can give notice to any... Jason Goss: My coach before me, that was coaching this team before me, and I remember telling her, these kids, they're not ready. They don't know what they're doing. She said, "It's weird, but right when the competition starts, whatever it is, all that stuff you told them, it just kicks in and then they just go and they do it." Tomorrow, they're going to amaze and astonish. They're going to be great because they're going to take those nerves and whatever, and they're going to be on stage, and they're going to be ready to go, and they're going to deliver. Katie Phang (narration): Like any collegiate athlete, these law students have something to prove on the field of play. The battle starts in one day. And on top of all of the legal strategy, there's another major stress factor. These trials are held on Zoom. And this year, the second year of the pandemic, the stakes are higher for mastering the technology. Bill Murray: Yeah, last year it was old webcams, bad internet, bedrooms. And here we've got really nice cameras. Katie Phang (narration): This is Bill Murray from South Dakota. Bill Murray: Your Honor, a moment to situate myself in the well of the courtroom. Braedon Houdek: So this is us right now. Then we go to screen share, already got our thing pulled up, permission to publish. And that we... Baylie Moravec: I think they need to click through it instead of waiting. Bill Murray: We've got some lighting. We're going to be in the courtroom. It's almost set up for the competition. So I think the school has had some more time to prepare for it. There's been a whole year of Zoom trials, so they've had time to think about it and the best way to go forward. Bill Murray: Can we run through the motions once of where we would be motion in limine, and then... Justin Petereit: I just don't know how you see this switching it out. Bill Murray: Well, let's run it quick. Braedon, do you want to go in there with this laptop, and then Rose, you're presiding. Bill Murray: So now all of our teams will be using this setup for all the competitions and hopefully we're back in person next spring, but if not, we've got a very nice setup going forward. Braedon Houdek: Okay. So I'll be given the motion in limine. So I'm going to be giving it from the Williamson room. Granted, obviously. Bill Murray: So state ready to proceed. Permission to prepare the well, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor. Nothing further. And then turn off my camera maybe? Laura Rose: And then turn off your camera. Bill Murray: I would unplug this, then I'll do my direct. They'll do their cross. I'll be seated here. Laura Rose: This video quality, right? This video quality right here, not the same as the video quality that we have in here. That's going to be too much of a difference. But if we have the setup in here so that we have that quality camera in here, I'm fine and I will stop my bitching. Katie Phang (narration): It's equally as tense inside that hotel room in San Antonio. Andy Vizcarra: Okay. So right now we're setting up the witness rooms. So we have to set up the backdrops and the cameras and the microphones in the rooms of the team members who will be witnessing in this competition. Katie Phang (narration): Every little detail matters. The lights, the cameras, the backdrops, even the makeup and hand movements. If you can see it on Zoom, chances are you're going to be judged on it. Andy Vizcarra: So John has built this contraption that's going to hold up the backdrops that another one of our classmates made. John Sydow: If something [crosstalk 00:46:51]... Andy Vizcarra: It's supposed to look like wood. It's like a wooden backdrop. It has the scales of justice in the middle of a little circle. How would you describe it, John? John Sydow: So it's a piece of vinyl that's wrapped around a frame built of PVC and printed on there is wood paneling with the scales of justice kind of super imposed on it. Kind of like you would see in the wood paneling in the back of a courtroom or an office space. Just got to get all these wrinkles out. So it's going to be behind the advocate. And so the advocate, if the advocate's right here, I'm going to hang or put the ring light up, which I can do actually behind you. See what I'm saying? Because that ring light also has a spot on it for the camera to screw in. Yep. Jasmin Olguin: We went through our defense case, opening of defense, our crosses. Then we did our direct examinations. And Andy closed on defense and kind of got some more stylistic feedback. For my opening, Coach Stewart told me that I can bring it up a notch in my energy, maybe sound a little more powerful. And also she wants me to move around more. Andy Vizcarra: I have to do less. She was like stop doing this with your hands. I was like, "I just want to emphasize.'" It's like teetering on jazz hands. Because I'm like, there's this, there's that, there's explosions coming out of your hands. And then this is just like, you're thinking. We have a thought. You're thinking. It's like you're pulling a little band between your hands. Like you're exercising your forearms or something. Jasmin Olguin: We've gotten feedback. Like one of the judges commented on a girl's eyelashes and her hair. You have to be very natural, natural makeup. That's what they want. For sure, hair tucked back. Because last year my coach, he was like, you have great hair, which is true, thank you. But he was like, you need to move it from your face. You don't need to have it blocking your face because it's distracting. And natural makeup, no heavy eyeshadows. Nails need to be professional. Nude, nothing crazy. With the clothes, just blue or black suits and then a white top. They had to approve our outfit. They even approved our other advocate's tie. He had to send his tie colors because you can't have something too distracting. Because they know, the judges will be like, "I hate that tie. I hate you. It's over for us." Andy Vizcarra: We got to work on your demonstrative. What are you doing? Jasmin Olguin: We're not going to sleep tonight, are we? Andy Vizcarra: No. Jasmin Olguin: I’m texting my nail guy, because he's- Andy Vizcarra: How are you going to make it to your nail guy, bro? We're going right here. Jasmin Olguin: I love this man. I do though. Katie Phang (narration): The only thing left to do in South Dakota... Baylie Moravec: I am a bundle of nerves. Katie Phang (narration): Besides the usual panicking is to fuel up for the brutal days that lie ahead. Bill Murray: I'm for feeling pretty good. I think we're ready to go. I'm ready for some pasta tonight. And then we're ready to roll. It's La Cosa noodles, like La Cosa Nostra. Baylie Moravec: Rose makes this infamous pasta sauce and you can smell it through the school whenever she brings it. So she made that sauce for a team dinner tonight before competition. And Bill calls tit he La Costra noodles. Laura Rose: I make homemade spaghetti sauce. It's one of my ways of decompressing and de-stressing, and I was also coring and blanching 179 pounds worth of tomatoes. And so I have fast tracked some of that to make homemade spaghetti sauce. We're going to have a spaghetti dinner because it just felt appropriate with the fact pattern. It's kind of an insane time. Everything gets a little discombobulated. Everything's a little stressful. Everything's a little bit heightened, but it's also a lot of fun. But what I'm most looking forward to is regardless of if it's Bill or Bailey, whichever one of them first gets to say, "Your Honor, a moment to prepare the well," and then get up and stand and be in a courtroom and make an argument in front of people. That's what I'm looking forward to. Baylie Moravec: I think it's a ton of fun just doing all of our run throughs with the team. I've never competed, but it's fun watching a case come together, and then it's fun listening to what someone else has done and then flipping it on them. I mean, it sounds a little mean, but it's fun to just tear something apart. Laura Rose: I'm amped and here's why I'm amped, guys. You are ready. You're absolutely ready for this. There is nobody who is going to be able to know this fact pattern as thoroughly as you know this fact pattern. There is nobody who has come back and put in the amount of hours outside of typical practice time that you guys have. Rely on that and rely on your knowledge. You guys are ready to go. Don't let the bells and whistles worry you. We're about to screw some people over big time and I cannot wait to watch what happens. Katie Phang (narration): That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of Sound Argument and iHeartRadio. Created, produced, written and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Sound design, editing and mixing by Lisa Gray, Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine This episode had additional field production by Kristen Cabrera and Paul Ebsen. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Previous Next

< Back PHIL PASQUARELLO with guest, Attorney, Battle of the Experts Trial Competition Director. "There's nothing like coaching a team. Every decision that you make as a team affects every facet of everything you're doing. There'll be times where I'm getting ready for bed and thinking, 'That theme we're using, I think that's going to be polarizing. I'm having second thoughts.'" Previous Next

< Back Episode 6 6. Civil Rights and How to Make a Cup of Chai Air date: July 5, 2022 Anjani Shah and Ellie Sands lead an all-female team from Brooklyn Law against an all-male team from Harvard University at the annual Martin Luther King Jr. National Civil Rights Competition. It’s an epic battle for an important cause. Anjani's immigrant parents watch the trial online, and her dad teaches us how to make a proper cup of chai. Back on campus, Ellie appeals to President Biden for clemency on behalf of her endangered client. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: Brooklyn Law School UC Davis School of Law Fordham University School of Law Brooklyn Defender Services North American South Asian Law Student Association Harvard Law School Mock Trial Association Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT [music – pensive, percussive, vibraphone] Katie Phang [narration]: Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Kathrine Boyko: I'm definitely having dreams about this trial. I'm having dreams that I'm in court, full on trial, getting objected to, objecting myself. It's actually encompassing every part of my life now. I can't even get a good nights rest without dreaming about trial. I took a nap the other day, and I had a dream that RBG came into my dream when I was in court and she was getting mad at me that I wasn't objecting enough. It scared the living Jesus out of me. I was literally in court and opposing counsel was just giving their directs or cross and she's one of the judges. She's just looking at me like, "Why aren't you objecting? This is objectionable. Object." I'm just like, "I don't know how to object. I don't know what to say. Oh my God, I'm losing my mind." She's just getting annoyed with me. That just made me really sad. I was like, "I can't." That's just the worst things in life, letting her down like that. She's one of my idols. Being a woman in the legal profession's not easy and I hope things will change. Honestly, sometimes I have to be like, "Just take a deep breath. You can do it." Just feeling a little insecure and I think she came into my dream and it was smacking that out of my mind. [music – soft, ambient, piano and synth pad] [archival from Ruth Bader Ginsburg statement to the Judiciary Committee 1987] Ruth Bader Ginsburg: I am, as you know from my responses to your questionnaire a Brooklynite born and bred. A first generation American on my father's side, barely second generation on my mother's. Neither of my parents had the means to attend college, but both taught me to love learning, to care about people, and to work hard for whatever I wanted or believed in. Their parents had the foresight to leave the old country when Jewish ancestry and faith meant exposure to pogroms and denigration of one's human worth. What has become of me could happen only in America. Like so many others, I owe so much to the entry this nation afforded to people yearning to breathe free. [sounds of NYC subway] Katie Phang [narration]: In October 2021, Brooklyn Law School sent an all-female team of second year law students to the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Competition held virtually from the University of California Davis. The team is coached by third year students. They argue their case four different times in one weekend against some of the top rising legal talent in the country. Anjani Shah: Then we saw Harvard. We're all kind of just completely silent on the edge of our seats. Ellie Sands: We did notice that it was an all-male team against an all-female team. Katie Phang [narration]: For these young idealists, the mock trial was a chance to see how their arguments could play out in the real world of American law. Anjani Shah: So you've referred to homelessness as a cancer and you've referred to homelessness as causing the decay of America. Witness: Yes, as causing decay. That's correct. Katie Phang [narration]: Where justice can be scarce and litigation is often a bare knuckled brawl. [music – motivational, hip-hop groove, horns, drums and bass, theme song] Katie Phang [narration]: I'm Katie Phang. Welcome back to Class Action. [audio from Brooklyn Law team practicing via Zoom] Jane: Okay, everyone ready for scrimmage? Samantha: Yes. Jane: Samantha, you ready? Samantha: I'm just getting my timer. Hang on. Jane: Oh, okay. Well here let's go with pretrial. Start with pretrial. Samantha: Oh, okay. Katie Phang [narration]: You're listening to episode six, Civil Rights and How to Make a Cup of Chai. Ellie Sands: Good morning, Your Honor. Before we begin, the plaintiff has some housekeeping matters to attend to. Judge: Okay, well, let's start with introductions. Ellie Sands: I was born and raised in New York City and I went to public school my whole life. My name is Ellie Sands. I'm a second year law student at Brooklyn Law School. My full name is Eliana, but I go by Ellie. After college, I came back to New York and I was a teacher in East Harlem, just teaching at a school 40 blocks north of where I went to high school felt like I was in a third-world country. There were things going on outside the school, like gang violence. There were things going on in my students' families, incarceration that were severely impacting their ability to learn and perform in the school environment. That was being ignored and was being disciplined harshly. I knew that it wasn't right. I ended up coming to law school because I couldn't make the kind of impact I wanted to without a law degree. Without being able to sit in the courtroom and advocate on behalf of the clients that I was working with. I specifically wanted to do a civil rights competition because that's the type of law I want to practice once I graduate. Phoebe Menaker: Good afternoon, my name is Phoebe Menaker and I also represent the defendant, Travis Gordon in today's case. Phoebe Menaker: My grandmother was a social worker for survivors of domestic violence. Between her impact that she's had on me and my general interest, that's brought me to the victim advocacy route. I’m working for a courtroom advocates project where survivors of domestic violence reach out to us and we walk them through the process of filing for their petition for an order of protection in family court. Then this summer, I was an intern in the Domestic Violence Bureau at the Brooklyn DA's Office, working with misdemeanors. I think the way people enter the system through domestic violence is interesting because it's not their choice, but I find having connection with a victim and having their perspective is so important in doing justice. Kathrine Boyko: Good morning, Your Honor. My name is Kathrine Boyko and I, along with my co-counsel, represent the defendant, Travis Gordon in today's case. Kathrine Boyko: I was born in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were born in Ukraine and my mom was a lawyer back in Ukraine. My mom had to leave her home country to make sure I had a better life. It was really important for me to carry on those dreams, carry on that ambition. It's important to me personally because I see that from a personal work experience that there are so many things that are just not right with the criminal justice system. That I don't want to be overly ambitious and say that I'm going to be the person that fixes all of it, but I definitely want to play a part in that. To do what I can to make things better for other people, defend people who can't really stand up for themselves. Anjani Shah: Good afternoon counselors. My name is Anjani Shah and I represent the plaintiff, Ms. Riley Taylor today. Anjani Shah: This is the first time I've ever done this. There are challenges. They're really just associated with, I think, overcoming your own discomfort, and your own vulnerabilities, and attacking those head on. For example, I think I am a very non-adversarial person and obviously a courtroom setting is an adversarial setting. You do have people who are opposing counsel who are trying to potentially rile you up or potentially trying to make frivolous objections just to throw you off. Dealing with that sort of discomfort has been challenging, but it's also something to confront before you actually get into a courtroom one day. [Ellie and Anjani inside the Brooklyn Law moot courtroom] Ellie Sands: Anjani is the plaintiff. [Anjani – No, I’m --] No, Anjani's the defense. Anjani's the defense. [music – funky hip-hop groove] Katie Phang [narration]: Anjani and Ellie have spent most of their law school years on Zoom. It's only natural that they would be excited about being in court and in person. Anjani Shah: Right now we are in the Brooklyn Law School, Moot Courtroom. Basically what it looks like there is a jury box. There is a witness stand. There's a place where the judge sits and there is a giant audience portion of this room, takes up most of the room. Ellie Sands: The party with the burden of proof sits closest to the jury so the plaintiff or the prosecution sits closest to the jury. The plaintiff would sit here and then the defense would sit at the table farthest from the jury box. Anjani Shah: They've got to feel out the jury more. They've got the burden. I think the person with the burden really has to convince the jury it's better to be in close proximity because the closer you are to the jury, the more likely they are to see that council tables reactions. The more likely to hear what they have to say. Ellie Sands: The point of a direct examination is that you want the jury to be paying attention to the witness. You don't want the jury to be looking at you. You are not the star of the show. Your witness is the star of the show. Whereas on cross examination- Anjani Shah: I'll be doing cross of this witness if Ellie is actually directing. I stand here because I want the jury to see me and my reactions. You as the witness are now looking at me and not them. That actually has quite an effect on the jury as well when you're diverting your eyes away from them. Ellie Sands: I'm the closer. So, the difference between opening and closing is that in closing, you are reviewing all of the evidence that you brought in during your case in chief. It's less scripted and more a summary of everything that came out during trial. A lot of which can be unpredictable. Some of which could be good for your side, some of which could be bad for your side. You have to be agile and sort of improvise some of what comes out in the closing. You also have to flip the other side's theme. That means that you want to turn the other side's argument against them. Jane Dowling: Right now we're really ramping up for competition. It's less than a week away or about actually a week away. It's a very intimidating process to present a case. As law students we're so unfamiliar with this and over Zoom, it's a whole other challenge. My name is Jane Dowling. I am the coach of the UC Davis Martin Luther King Civil Rights Competition. Confidence is really key. We're not really making substantive changes at this point. It's just sort of running through the material, practicing, honing in on some details, getting pumped up. Of course, we're law students. We all have strong personalities. You don't come to law school if you don't have strong volitions and strong opinions. [sounds of Brooklyn street traffic and pedestrians] Katie Phang [narration]: Brooklyn Law was founded in 1901 to serve working people, women, ethnic minorities, and immigrants. The school is across Joralemon Street from the Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg Municipal building on a stretch of pavement now named Black Lives Matter Boulevard. Joralemon Street runs down to the East River. An area that once held molasses and sugar refineries, both industries that were rooted in America's slave owning past. The young advocates on the Brooklyn Law team keep that history in mind as they pack up their laptops and coffee, and they fight through traffic to school every day. The building faces Cadman Plaza Park just blocks away from the Brooklyn Bridge. In the last few years, Cadman Plaza has become the epicenter of many of Brooklyn's most heated protests. [archival news and video coverage from Black Lives Matter protests in Brooklyn, NY] Crowd: I matter. We matter. Crowd: Black lives matter. Black lives matter. Crowd: I can't breathe. I can’t breathe. [police siren] Stacy Caplow: My name's Stacy Caplow and I'm a professor of law at Brooklyn Law School, which has a very progressive and liberal student body here in New York. I'm also the Associate Dean for Experiential Education at the law school. It's what's called a standalone school. In other words, we're not part of a larger university. As a school, we have a lot of independence and kind of nimble in terms of what we can and cannot do. Because we're located in the heart of New York, we have access to all sorts of resources within what is clearly the largest legal community in the world. Our students are out there all the time working as well as obviously going to school and learning how to become lawyers. Katie Phang [narration]: The Brooklyn team has worked on arguments for both sides of the problem for the King Competition. They have to picture what could possibly come at them, whether they're representing the plaintiff or the defense. They have to be ready for anything. Ellie Sands: An overview of this case is that an executive order was put into place by the governor of a made up state called the state of Columbia. This executive order implemented what is called a shelter station, which is supposed to take homeless individuals off of the street and help give them a place to stay, food to eat, a roof over their head. The plaintiff is bringing an Eighth Amendment cruel and unusual constitutional violation against the defendant. Firstly, a homeless person is taken to shelter station against their will. It's a detention center for which they do not know how long they will be detained for. A homeless person must complete classes in English and math. They must pass several hygiene requirements. They have to engage in a job while they're at the shelter station. Lastly, and perhaps most burdensome, they have to prove that they have permanent housing before they're released, but they're unable to save up money while they're at the shelter station. Dennis Cota: The competition is the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Trial Practice Competition. UC Davis School of Law has been hosting that now for the last four years. I'm Dennis Cota. I supervise the trial practice program at UC Davis King Hall. I am a magistrate judge for the Eastern District of California. [archival TV news report from Sacramento, CA] News Anchor: There's a new option to help get dozens of people off the streets of Sacramento. This is the city's newest homeless shelter. Up to 100 people will begin staying here next week. The X Street Navigation Shelter is near Broadway and Alhambra. It is more than just a place to sleep though, there's also life skills classes, recovery assistance, Medicare care, and financial counseling. As well as services for help people transition from homelessness to permanent housing. Dennis Cota: Being in a city where you were having to step over the people living on the sidewalk made me realize that this is a societal issue with no easy solutions. I thought this would be a good topic because these people, while they're clearly creating a strain on their community still have rights. They're still citizens. Martin Luther King is a towering figure in the civil rights area. [16:50] [archival audio from Martin Luther King Jr. Speech] Martin Luther King Jr.: As we struggle to realize the American dream, let us realize that we do not struggle alone. [music, soft, slow tempo, piano, clarinet and marimba] Dennis Cota: The law school at UC Davis is named after Martin Luther King. The students daily walk past a life-size ceramic figure of the late civil rights leader in the lobby of King Hall. Katie Phang [narration]: In 1963, Dr. King spoke to the congregation of the Plymouth Church in Brooklyn Heights. Martin Luther King Jr.: Even though there are the difficult days ahead, even though before the victory is won, somebody else will have to get scared up. Somebody else will have to go to jail. Maybe some will have to face physical death. Before the victory is won, some will be misunderstood, call bad names. Be dismissed as dangerous rebel-rousers and agitators. Even in the midst of that the struggle must go on. Katie Phang [narration]: In the run up to the event, the Brooklyn team practices against mystery teams made up of alumni who volunteer to help the 2Ls get ready to compete. [audio from the Brooklyn Law practicing via Zoom] Kathrine Boyko: The other job you ever had was babysitting, correct? Jane: Yes. Oh, wait. What the hell. I'm not the witness. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. I'm the attorney. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So sorry. Can we back up? You take it away. I will be the attorney. Katie Phang [narration]: They go at it night and day. Kathrine Boyko: That is all for defense. Jane: Okie-dokie. Plaintiff, do you have any additional housekeeping matters to address? Samantha: Yeah, Your Honor, we just asked that everything that applied to defense also applies to the plaintiff. Jane: Of course. Samantha: Also, as an aside, Your Honor, due to my own version of cruel and unusual punishment from back to back courses, I may be eating throughout because I haven't had any food since I don't know how long. If you see me eating, I'm sorry. Jane: No problem at all. Thanks for the heads up. Samantha: Any other housekeeping matters from plaintiff? Katie Phang [narration]: The practice judges talk strategy to bring the four newbies up to speed. Ellie Sands: Just keep your answers to yes or no, please. Coach: The witness if she answers that question can answer however she feels counselor. If you're not getting the answers you want, you might want to narrow your questions a little bit. Ellie Sands: Sorry, Your Honor. Coach: Don't apologize to me. It's okay. Ellie Sands: Ms. Alfred, the shelter station that... [fade out] Adam Shlahet: It all comes down to four students and a coach or two in a room working hard. Katie Phang [narration]: That's Adam Shlahet coach at Fordham University and one of our commentators. Adam Shlahet: Thinking about the case, and arguing, and figuring it out, and practicing, and running it again. That's the same at every single law school. It's what happens in that little room. The learning happens in that little room. Resources don't give anybody an advantage in that little room. You need people who really care about this, and care about the students learning, and students who are motivated. You can get that anywhere. Lara Bazelon: You need to really tie yourself very, very closely to the law. Katie Phang [narration]: Lara Bazelon is a former federal public defender who now teaches at the university of San Francisco School of Law and runs its highly acclaimed Racial Justice Clinic. Lara Bazelon: It's not enough to just have bravado in style if there's nothing else behind it. You have to absolutely understand what the governing law is and if you're the prosecutor be prepared to prove every element. If you're the defense council, figure out which elements you don't need to contest and which ones you do. Katie Phang: Lara, when you're working with your students, is there something that you do to be able to say to them, "Look, on one end you can't have an overzealous prosecution, but also on the other hand, you can't have criminal defense attorneys that have blinders on." How do you work with your students to let them know that this is a possibility when they go out into the real world? Lara Bazelon: I think it is really important to be honest about the fact that we have a lot of failings in this system and they're on both sides. You're right, there are plenty of overzealous prosecutors. There are prosecutors who suffer from tunnel vision. There are prosecutors who commit misconduct. Most of them not intentionally, but because they haven't been trained properly or they get caught up in the moment. At the same time, there are plenty of defense attorneys who are not doing their jobs. They may be poorly trained. They may be overwhelmed or they may quite frankly just be lazy. We have had many, many cases where the level of advocacy at the trial court on behalf of our post-conviction clients has been absolutely abysmal. [Regina Yu and Ellie Sands at Brooklyn Law] Regina Yu: We're in good shape, but the more I learn about their situation, the more just devastating it is. Ellie Sands: I'm also blown away by how kind and optimistic she is the more I learn. Regina Yu: I agree. I mean the system fails her over and over and over again and she just continues to be the most wonderful person. Ellie Sands: She'll also text us and say like, "How are you feeling today? Thank you so much for everything you're doing." Regina Yu: She's so grateful. Ellie Sands: So sweet. Katie Phang [narration]: In addition to trial team, Ellie and third year law student, Regina Yu, are working together on a real world case for the Brooklyn Defender Service. Stacy Caplow: Any law school these days would have to have some clinical offerings, but we've been doing this for 50 years now. Katie Phang [narration]: Stacy Caplow is the supervisor for the clinic. Stacy Caplow: Most students here at Brooklyn Law School by the time they're finished have three, four, maybe even five semesters of experiences in either in our clinics, which are in house or off campus in law offices all over the city. Stacy Caplow: That's the annoying form that the Pardon Office requires. How far along are we on the form? Ellie Sands: Actually almost done. Most of it's filled out. Stacy Caplow: Our client is a woman, and a mother, and a daughter, and has been in this country for at least half of her life and all of her adult life. She first came here as a young teenager and had lawful status in the US, but as a result of a single mistake she made that violated federal law she was prosecuted, convicted, served a sentence and then was put into deportation proceedings. One form of relief that we can try to obtain for them is to get a pardon from the president. That pardon has the possibility of acting as in effect the defense to their deportation. Not a lot of people get pardons. Stacy Caplow: You still want to do this? Ellie Sands: Yeah. Stacy Caplow: All right, good. With all the aggravating details? Ellie Sands: That's what makes you want to do it more. Regina Yu: This is the least aggravating thing that I do. Ellie Sands: By far. Stacy Caplow: The most meaningful. Ellie Sands: Yes. Stacy Caplow: Okay, good. Good. Stacy Caplow: I know Ellie from working with her this semester in the clinic and she is dogged, but also has an extremely warm and pleasant way of expressing herself. I think she's a good example, as is Anjani. If there's a way that you put yourself out there and you present yourself, be true to yourself, they really don't need to yell and scream. They can just be calm, collected, and forceful without having to pound the table. Anjani Shah: On Friday around 1:00 we had a little team get together over Zoom like we would in like a locker room sort of. Katie Phang [narration]: This is Anjani. Anjani Shah: Pump each other up, let each other know that we're not going to be more ready than we are today. Like we were about to go into a game and it was like, "Leave it on the scoreboard." Then in the hour right before we actually entered the competition room, I have some personal rituals that I do, which include listening and dancing to a very embarrassing Aretha Franklin “Respect” by myself in my room alone. [laugh] I actually have not even admitted that to a lot of people. It's a very sacred ritual to me. Kevin: Well, you just admitted it probably to a lot of people, but that's okay. Anjani Shah: It's out there now. Kevin: It's out there now. Anjani Shah: Exactly. [audio from UC Davis King Competition via Zoom] Judge: Very well. Plaintiff, are you ready to proceed with openings? Anjani Shah: Yes, Your Honor. We're ready to proceed. Judge: Very well. You may proceed. Anjani Shah: A veteran, a Patriot, a United States citizen stripped of the rights she risked her life to protect. May it please the court, opposing counsel, members of the jury. My name is Anjani Shah and I, along with my co-counsel, Ms. Ellie Sands represent the plaintiff, Ms. Riley Taylor in today's case. Katie Phang [narration]: Anjani opens as Brooklyn Law takes on the University of Connecticut in Round One. It's her team's first appearance ever at a competition. Anjani Shah: After she was honorably discharged, she again, answered the call to keep our country safe as a mechanic on military aircrafts. Unfortunately in 2015, you will learn that Ms. Taylor was let go from her job. Just after she was let go, you will hear that her welfare check started getting smaller and smaller. So, Ms. Taylor became just another data point in the city of Oakland's growing homeless population. Katie Phang [narration]: The Brooklyn team argues that the plaintiff has value and humanity. They deny that the homeless were rounded up in order to help them. Instead, Brooklyn insists the homeless were arrested for being poor. Ellie Sands: Now, Chief Gordon business was better in downtown Oakland? Chief Gordon: Sure, yeah. Ellie Sands: But the homeless population still existed? Chief Gordon: Yes, we were not able to eradicate it completely. Ellie Sands: You referred to homeless individuals as, "Skid row rejects." Chief Gordon: I may have. Yeah. Ellie Sands: You referred to homeless individuals as "Derelicts." Chief Gordon: Yes. Ellie Sands: You referred to homeless individuals as, "Mr. Ratso." Chief Gordon: Oh, in connection with the public defecation, yes. Ellie Sands: And vermin? Chief Gordon: Yes. Ellie Sands: I'm jumping ahead to your current role, Chief Gordon, you enforced Executive Order 113, right? Chief Gordon: I did. Katie Phang [narration]: After the round, the team gathers online to wait for feedback and they hear that they beat Yukon, but the judges say they need to work on a few things. Judge 1: Remove all references to, I believe, I think. The court doesn't care about your feelings. It doesn't care about your beliefs. The court cares about the law. It cares about the facts and it cares about what's happening the record. It's not that you believe it's this, it's that this is the law. Judge 2: There were times when I think you all could've done a better job, listening to your witness, especially on direct. It often felt like maybe an objection came up or your witness didn't give you the exact answer. Then you had a hard time pivoting from there. Judge 3: Well, thanks everybody. That was a great round. I thought the plaintiff, your crosses were good. Very, very good in fact. Ellie, your cross was very good. Katie Phang [narration]: Brooklyn Law is listening. They beat Texas A&M in Round Two. Then they're power matched to UC San Diego. Ellie Sands: Your Honor- Judge: Objection sustained. Judge: Yes. Ellie Sands: I also ask for motion to strike of all answers that reference camps from the record. Judge: That I'm not going to do, you let the cat out of the bag a little too early. We're just going to go ahead and proceed with what we have. Overruled on that. Competitor: Ms. Alfred, where are you going after you testify here to today? Mr. Alfred: I'm going back to the shelter station. Competitor: How long have you been in the shelter station? Mr. Alfred: Since January 2020 or so. Katie Phang [narration]: UC San Diego wins round three, but the judges have some surprises in store for the Brooklyn team. Ellie Sands: We were all at Anjani's house and we were starving. None of us had eaten yet because it was a 13 hour day. We had gone straight through. We had ordered pizza and we were just stuffing our faces because we were so hungry at that point. Kathrine Boyko: We were sitting on the couch and on the screen, they were about to give off awards. I was just like, "Oh, opening statement awards, Anjani or Phoebe should get that." Then the first thing that comes on is Anjani's name. Ellie Sands: What just happened? Kathrine Boyko: Anjani got the best opening statement! Ellie Sands: We just all tackled her to the ground and were crying, and screaming, and so happy. Anjani Shah: To get recognized for something that I had no idea how to do three, four months ago out of a field of 44 other people who gave opening statements from Ivy League schools all across the country so many talented advocates, was extremely validating. That I have picked the right thing and I can do this and this is for me, even though some days it may not feel like it. Ellie Sands: Then they announced the semi-finalists and they named the schools one by one. One school went by, then another school went by, then the third school went by, and we were the fourth school. Anjani Shah: Our name pops up on the screen and it was an eruption of screams, and joy, and shrieking. I feel so sorry for my poor next-door neighbors who have young kids because it must have been like 10:45 Eastern time when this was happening. Kathrine Boyko: We were like, "Oh my God." We were screaming. We were jumping. We were screeching. We were laughing. We were crying. We were hugging. It was a mess, but it was so exciting and I'm so glad we got to share that moment together. Ellie Sands: Then we were like, "We got to go home. We have to prepare for tomorrow morning." The way it worked was that there was a coin toss to see which side of our team would be competing in the semi-final. Our school won the coin toss. Our coaches chose to have Anjani and I go. Then we ended up putting on a case in the morning. Harvard was the reigning champion of this competition. They had won last year. Going against Harvard I think, sure the name is intimidating. [audio from the home of Leena and Pritesh Shah] Anjani Shah: When I told my parents, I mean, they were just ecstatic. They know how much time has gone into this and how much sacrifice I've had to make because they're right over the bridge in New Jersey. Dr. Leena Shah: We just knew she was preparing. She was up against this big teams that have proved themselves in the past. It was going to be a formidable competition. Katie Phang [narration]: Doctors Leena and Pritesh Shah are Anjani's parents. Dr. Leena Shah: When she told us about how well their team did unexpectedly and how she did personally on a personal level, how she excelled, we were just so happy and proud of her. Dr. Pritesh Shah: Well, to me, it was not unexpectedly. To me it was, I knew. Dr. Leena Shah: No. I meant for the team, for the team, for the school. You know Brooklyn Law had never been placed that high in this sort of a competition. Anjani Shah: First time doing this competition for Brooklyn. Dr. Pritesh Shah: If you're passionate about something, you can only be successful. [34:00] Dr. Pritesh Shah: Can I make you a cup of tea or something? A chai? You guys want to drink some chai? Anjani Shah: Yeah. Kevin: Sure. Absolutely. Dr. Pritesh Shah: It'll be spicy. You like spicy? Kevin: That's okay. Dr. Pritesh Shah: How about you, Lauren? Lauren: I don't know about spicy. Anjani Shah: It's like pepper, cinnamony- Dr. Pritesh Shah: It's flavorful. Lauren: I could try it. Anjani Shah: Yeah. You try it. Dr. Pritesh Shah: Try a little bit. Okay, let me make some. This is loose leaf tea. I got three cups of water in there. I have two tea bags and I put three spoonfuls of loose leaf tea. Then I have, this is chai masala. Chai masala is cardamon, black pepper, cloves. That's the spice. Dr. Leena Shah: Anjani's the middle child. From the day she was born, she already had that sense of fairness and justice even when she was much younger. She would take an issue however small and just come up with an argument and say why this is not right. Anjani Shah: I'm basically the first lawyer in the family. Kind of something that I had to chart by myself. I think I told them after the fact, I was like, "Okay, I'm on the Moot Court Team." They were like, "We have no idea what that is." I do think that the color of my skin makes it such that I need to be more prepared than whoever my adversary is at every turn. I mean, it's certainly something I've just had to live with my whole life. At this point it's become a hustle. It's become hard work and a way of life because I know that the only reason my parents got to where they were, and subsequently how they've been able to support me to get to where I am is because of all of that hard work and being more prepared than the person standing next to them. That's really all it comes down to. Dr. Leena Shah: I'm the oldest of four siblings. I lost my dad at a very young age. My mother raised us all four by herself. She managed to make sure we were all not only just provided for, but also went on to be well educated and professionals. I went to medical school at a very young age. I was not even 18 when I started medical school, this was in India. I went from a small town to a big city to learn medicine. That's where I met him and he was a quote unquote foreigner because he came from Kenya. Dr. Pritesh Shah: I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, and my father was born in Nairobi, Kenya. Kenya was a British Colony, East Africa was a British Colony. My father was a person of modest means. We lived in a one bedroom apartment, five of us. I'm the middle of three siblings. So my father said, "Okay, who's going to become the doctor here?" It was left up to me and being a person of modest means, education's very expensive abroad, England, America, things like that. I opted to go to India where the education was cheap. Four and a half years in medical school and then I decided to come here to the United States. Took me two years to find a residency and it was, somebody gives you an opportunity...[crying] Anjani Shah: Dad. I’ll et you some water. Dr. Leena Shah: He hasn't thought of the whole journey in a long time. Anjani Shah: I know. I love hearing it, with this much detail. Dr. Leena Shah: It's all coming back to him. Anjani Shah: It's been awhile. Dr. Leena Shah: Thank you, Kevin. He probably needs this. Dr. Pritesh Shah: No. I ended up getting an opportunity from a residency training director, my own director who gave me the externship called me up and said, "Come and do a residency with me. I don't need to interview you. I know who you are." Dr. Leena Shah: You're still in touch with him. He's your mentor. He was an immigrant himself. [back in the kitchen, making chai] Dr. Pritesh Shah: Okay, then I flavor it with cardamon, ground up cardamon. Then I'm going to get some mint and I'm going to get some ginger, fresh mint, fresh ginger. This is the ratio I use. Everybody doesn't use the same ratio. I'll take my ginger and I'll grate some ginger in it. Kevin: I can already smell it. Dr. Pritesh Shah: You can smell it, right? Lauren: Very fragrant. Dr. Pritesh Shah: Then I'll take some fresh mint. Put the fresh mint in there and then it'll come to a boil because you've got to let it boil and then you'll add the milk. [audio from UC Davis King Competition Semi-final Round via Zoom] Judge: Starting with the plaintiff. Do you have any other housekeeping matters to cover that I have not covered? Katie Phang [narration]: Right from the start. The judge is tough on Ellie. Ellie Sands: Yes, Your Honor. The plaintiff has a few housekeeping matters to attend to. Firstly, would Your Honor like a courtesy copy of the plaintiff's notice of appearance? Judge: No, I don't need one. Ellie Sands: Would Your Honor like a brief recitation of the facts for today's case? Judge: Not as a housekeeping matter, no. Ellie Sands: Your Honor, for judicial notice, we have discussed our motions in limine with opposing counsel during pretrial and have stipulated to exclusion of three pieces of evidence. Judge: Those are in limine matters. I am asking only for housekeeping matters. Stipulations will cover. Ellie Sands: Yes, Your Honor. Ellie Sands: Additionally, Your Honor, permission to have local rules constructively read into the record? Judge: Local rules do not need to be read into the record. Kathrine Boyko: He was a tough cookie for sure, but Ellie she stood her ground. She recuperated and she was not phased and I'm really proud of her for that. I was literally sitting on the edge of my seat. My whole family was actually watching too as spectators and they were on the edge of their seats too. Ellie Sands: But just because those competitors go to Harvard Law School doesn't necessarily make them better advocates than us because we go to Brooklyn Law School. Ellie Sands: We've all had the material for the same amount of time. We’ve all been training for the same amount of time and you all have the same resources to a certain extent. Going against four males, it's interesting now that was the first thing Anjani and I said to each other is that, "We're going against an all-male team and we have a male judge." Katie Phang [narration]: The case is on. Ellie questions Phoebe, who is acting as a witness. Ellie Sands: How long have you been at shelter station three, Ms. Alfred. Phoebe Menaker: Over a year and a half. Ellie Sands: Do you know how much longer you'll be there for? Phoebe Menaker: I have no idea. No one's actually told me. All I know is that I can't leave. Ellie Sands: Why not? Phoebe Menaker: Well, there are requirements before I can leave. Detainees must work. I have to take classes in hygiene, and math, and English, and I need to pass a test that they give us at the end of every month. The test is really hard. Ellie Sands: Why is the test hard? Phoebe Menaker: Well, they're a whole bunch of word problems on the math test and I don't have enough time to complete the questions. We also can't use a calculator. Ellie Sands: Would you recognize that test if you saw it here today? Phoebe Menaker: Yes. Ellie Sands: Your Honor, directing witness court and count's attention to what has been pre-marked as Trial Exhibit 2. Permission to share via the screen share function constructively outside the presence of the jury? Judge: You may proceed. Ellie Sands: Please let the record reflect- Harvard competitor: Your Honor, I have an objection to this exhibit on hearsay ground. Judge: You're premature for your hearsay objection. Proceed, counsel. Katie Phang [narration]: Anjani pushes back against the Harvard defense. Harvard Competitor: So let's start by talking about the shelter station program. Can you describe it for the jury? Dr. Cole: The shelter station program was a rehabilitative program put in place because the state of Columbia was in a state of crisis. Anjani Shah: Objection Your Honor. On two grounds, one being speculation and two being lack of expertise and I can explain further, Your Honor, if you wish. Judge: I have not yet had the witness tendered as an expert. The proper objection would be foundation and if you are disputing the qualifications of the expert, you're free to voir dire if that's your request? Anjani Shah: Your Honor, may I? Judge: Plaintiff, do you wish to voir dire the expert? Anjani Shah: Yes, Your Honor may I inquire? Judge: You may. Anjani Shah: Dr. Cole, you've based your conclusions today on the established principles in the field of urban social symmetry? Dr. Cole: That's correct. Anjani Shah: Urban social symmetry is a relatively new field? Dr. Cole: Yes. It's an exciting new field. Anjani Shah: And you testified that urban social symmetry is about how demographic groups interact with each other, correct? Dr. Cole: Exactly and the effect it has on urban life and communities. Exactly. Anjani Shah: Just a yes or no will suffice, Dr. Cole thank you. Anjani Shah: Dr. Cole, you consider homelessness to be one part of that broad specialty? Dr. Cole: That's correct. Anjani Shah: You're aware that the issue in today's case is homelessness? Dr. Cole: That's correct. Anjani Shah: We're not here to discuss urban social symmetry. Dr. Cole: No, not that the field as a whole, that's correct. Anjani Shah: In fact, today is the first time you're testifying about homelessness? Dr. Cole: Yes, that's correct. Anjani Shah: No further questions, your honor. He does not meet the first requirement of Federal Rule of Evidence 702 and should not be tendered as an expert today. Katie Phang [narration]: As Anjani cross examines a key witness she's honing in on Harvard's main line of argument. She denies that shelter stations are a way to help homeless people. Instead, Anjani insists, "The city and state are more interested in scoring points with voters for cleaning up the streets. They don't really care about helping the homeless." Judge: You may proceed cross examination. Anjani Shah: Yes, Your Honor. Anjani Shah: Dr. Cole, can you hear me all right? Dr. Cole: Yes, I can. Anjani Shah: Dr. Cole, have you testified as an expert before? Dr. Cole: Yes I have. Anjani Shah: And you get paid by your client each time you testify? Dr. Cole: Of course. Anjani Shah: Today the client paying your fee is the defendant, right? Dr. Cole: That's correct. Anjani Shah: I think I saw what they were trying to do and that actually lit a little bit of a fire in me to say this expert is trying to sound really good, and pull the wool over the jury's eye, and pull the wool over my eyes, frankly and it's not going to work. Anjani Shah: You're aware that Executive Order 113 created by Governor Ferris, is that issue in this case? Dr. Cole: Yes. I'm aware of that. Anjani Shah: Dr. Cole, you've published research about urban social symmetry? Dr. Cole: That's correct. Anjani Shah: And much of that research is specifically focused on homelessness, right? Dr. Cole: Yes. Anjani Shah: For example, you published a piece titled, A Societal Sickness: The Cancer Called Homelessness. Dr. Cole: Yes, that's correct. Anjani Shah: You also published a piece titled, A Society Out of Balance: Homelessness and the Decay of the American Community. Dr. Cole: Yes, exactly. Anjani Shah: You referred to homeless individuals as a cancer. Dr. Cole: No. I referred to homelessness as a cancer, not homeless individuals. It's a fine distinction. It's a cancer upon the people who it inflicts. Anjani Shah: So you referred to homelessness as a cancer. Dr. Cole: That's correct. Anjani Shah: And you referred to homelessness as causing the decay of America. Dr. Cole: Yes. It's causing decay. That's correct. Anjani Shah: This expert is an expert in urban social symmetry, which is just absolutely the most absurd specialty I have ever heard of. Sorry to anyone out there who is actually an expert in urban social symmetry. I'd like to meet one someday. Yeah, I felt that was the most effective way to make this expert really look silly. Those traps were very purposefully laid. Katie Phang [narration]: Everything now depends on the closing. [music, pulsing, electronic bass ambient] Katie Phang [narration]: It's Ellie against Harvard. She argues that the defendant in effect sentenced a veteran to indefinite detention at a shelter station and she denounces the defendant's refusal to take the stand. Ellie Sands: Members of the jury, the defendant didn't even bother to show up in court today. The defendant himself has no defense. There were countless other ways the defendant could have helped the homeless population. He chose not to. Katie Phang [narration]: In its closing argument, Harvard flips that theme claiming the shelter stations are meant to help. This is a part of the process that activist lawyers relish. Ellie goes straight at the defense in her rebuttal. Ellie Sands: Ms. Taylor and all homeless people in the state of Columbia are subject to future indefinite detainment because of the fact that they are homeless. The defendant is not interested in eradicating homelessness. The defendant is interested in eradicating homeless people. The defendant has used belligerent language to describe Ms. Taylor and other homeless people before. Words like vermin and derelicts are simply part of his vocabulary. The fact that government officials like Chief Gordon use words like this to describe members of the public show he's not qualified to be a public servant. Now this executive order lumps all homeless people together under the definition of vagrancy. It does not distinguish- Bailiff: Ballots in, thank you. You guys would like to give feedback if you want and then Vivian will come and announce which team moved on. Judge 1: This is by far one of the best mock trials I've witnessed. I tried to take notes. I couldn't see much room for improvement. I want to take note of when you guys actually become lawyers so that I can set my retirement for that time because I'm not going to be able to compete. Bailiff: Next. Judge 2: I was honored to be here today. These are two extraordinary teams, four extraordinary future lawyers. I'd be happy to work with you. My job is I'm a general counsel for a $340 billion financial institution. I hire lawyers all the time. I retain lawyers all the time. All four of you would be in my pool. I'd hire you anytime. You've chosen the right profession. You're extraordinary. I've judged a number of these mock trials over the years and I think this is the best that I've seen. Judge 3: I have to say you were all terrific. My only suggestion would be that the closing argument probably ought to be easier to remember than a long argument. Judge 1: I will echo those comments that when you get out in practice, you're going to find that the hardest part about jury trials or any kind of court appearance is standing up in front of 12 people who couldn't escape jury duty or three judges that you think know the law so much better than you when they really don't. Not stammering and losing your place and then sitting down and realize that you didn't zip up your fly after the last trip to the restroom. I guarantee you those mistakes will happen to you, but I would encourage you to focus your opening statements simply on your narrative of the facts. How can you explain the facts of your case in a persuasive way in three minutes, in a way that would persuade your Trump supporting drunk uncle at Thanksgiving to believe your case. Katie Phang [narration]: The judges issue their ruling. Vivian: Hi, it's Vivian. Congratulations to all teams that made to the semifinals. I mean, it's been wonderful having you all. This was a very, very close round, but the team that is advancing to the final round is Team F. Congrats. Also, team A wonderful job. Really, really congratulations you all. Everyone's been doing wonderful and good luck team F in the next round. If you have a few questions, I'm going to jump back to the main room. Ask me questions there, but otherwise everyone else is free to go. Ellie Sands: Thank you all. Vivian: Yeah, congrats. Judge: Thank you all. Katie Phang [narration]: Harvard advances. Brooklyn is out. Ellie Sands: They threw a huge curve ball at us. They didn't call the defendant and they were representing the defendant in their case. We've run so many hypotheticals. We've practiced against so many different people. We've combated so many different personalities thinking that we had prepared for every possible scenario. In no possible scenario did we ever think the defense would not call the defendant. I ended up having to give a cross examination that I had never done before because I normally cross the defendant and I had to rewrite my entire closing statement during the trial because my entire closing statement was attacking the character of the defendant. There was a lot of agility and adjusting necessary in that round. Anjani Shah: I felt that it was so close. Honestly, when we were getting the judges' feedback, I go through this it's been what a month now. I go through this almost daily in my head. I'm like, "Why did we lose?" I think that, I felt we won just because of how hard we worked and how good our trial was. Despite the craziness of what happened behind the scenes. I felt that we walked away as winners despite not advancing to the final round. Ellie Sands: Their advocacy was better than our advocacy in that round and that's why they won. Harvard didn't call the defendant, that was well within their choice. We as a team fell short in preparing for that possibility. I learned a lot from that competition. I learned more than anything to expect to be thrown off your game. It's a matter of anticipating that there is going to be something in the course of the trial that you are not going to expect. You need to go in being prepared to go outside of your comfort zone. Going in being prepared to do something differently than what you anticipated. It's a little bit of a metaphor for life. Katie Phang [narration]: Sure, it'd be nice to beat Harvard, but the Brooklyn team has learned a valuable lesson. Soon they'll be walking out the door to take the Bar exam and instead of practicing for mock trial, they'll be practicing law. On behalf of their real-world clients, they'll never let someone do that to them again. Ellie Sands: I think for myself, for Anjani, for the rest of our team, and for our coaches, this isn't a game for us. This is what we want to do with our lives and we're very much invested in social change. We're very much invested in the issues that this case raised; homelessness, police discretion, poverty, criminal justice, constitutional rights. For us, this was really an introduction to our careers. It really wasn't about winning or losing. It was about representing our client, and our values, and our morals in the best way that we could. [audio from call between Ellie and her client with the Brooklyn Defender Services] Ellie Sands: I think the biggest update that we have is that your pardon is officially filed. Crystal, it's a 500 page application that we sent over to the Federal Pardon Office and now we just wait. Now we just wait for a response. Cristal Morris: Okay. Katie Phang: Cristal, how does it make you feel to know that you have this exceptional group of people that are just good people as human beings, but are exceptional advocates that are working for you to help you and your family be able to stay in the United States? Cristal Morris: I feel very wonderful. I feel very blessed and I thank all of them for their help to take the time out to take my case. Katie Phang: I understand that your family has faced great tragedy and that there is this possibility that if you were to return to Jamaica that you yourself would be at serious physical risk of harm and maybe even death. I can't imagine how difficult it is for you to have to kind of process all of this information. How do you manage this just on an emotional level, on a personal level, when you think about on a day by day basis what your future may be? Cristal Morris: Well, it's hard. It's hard for me and my kids because... [crying] I'm sorry. It's getting closer to court dates and my kids cry all the time. Now everybody starts sleeping in the room with me. They trying to spend time with me before and then my family comes over. My niece and nephew, they coming back over for spring break. It's really sad. Katie Phang: Ellie, if you had that unfettered completely free conversation maybe with the immigration judge, or maybe even if it was just Joe Biden, just sitting there across from you, what would you say, Ellie? Ellie Sands: I'd probably read them a couple paragraphs from the pardon application. I would just look that pardon official in the eye and ask them, "What would you do if you couldn't feed your child and how would you want to be treated?" Okay, this is an introductory paragraph to the entire pardon. In this application, we will share Ms. Morris's story with you. It is a story of resilience. Crystal Morris is a woman who refused to let herself be defined by the cruelty and hardships inflicted upon her, but instead took the fragmented pieces left behind by her abusers and the murderers who took the lives of her brothers and turned these misfortunes into a beautiful, complex, and full life. Ms. Morris has against all odds created a stable home for herself, her six children, and her mother. In this application we will bring you into her life through the past, into the present, and provide a window into her future. However, we implore you to recognize that Ms. Morris is so much more than we could ever explain through words on a page. Cristal Morris is joy and grace embodied. We hope to provide you with the opportunity to become as moved and inspired by Ms. Morris's incredible display of strength and perseverance as we have been. Katie Phang: Cristal, I'm sure that there are miracles, but it sounds like you've got angels on earth that are looking out for you right now in the form of Ellie, and Michelle, and Dan and everybody. I wish you the very best of luck, Cristal, but if I had anybody like these fighting people fighting for me, I'd feel like I got a little bit of luck and I got a whole lot of some of God's grace helping me out right now. Cristal Morris: Thank you, yes. [59:00] Katie Phang [narration]: As for the rest of the season for Brooklyn Law, the team won the Fordham University Kelly Competition beating UCLA. Ellie competed in the Regional National Championship for the Texas Young Lawyers Association advancing to the quarter finals. She was then voted on to the National team for next season. Anjani competed in the Queen's County District Attorney's Competition advancing to the quarter finals. She was selected to serve as president of the Moot Court Honor Society . [music, hip hop positive bass and percussion groove, theme song] AJ Bellido de Luna: I received the phone call saying, "Hey, the judges are saying that you guys are cheating because you have one advocate playing all the roles." Bailiff: Before you all remove yourselves from the room can we have the team for the plaintiff. We need to verify which one of you all did, which portions of the trials. AJ Bellido de Luna: The only thing that's similar to them is that they're both Latinas. They're both Brown skinned. Other than that, it's two completely different people and you can't mix them up. Katie Phang [narration]: That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episode was written by Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norville. Sound design, editing, and mixing by Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. # END Previous Next

< Back Episode 5 5. A Ram in the Bush Air date: June 28,2022 The undergraduate trial season at Dillard University gets off to a disastrous start as Hurricane Ida lays waste to the campus, forcing students into hotels for safety. Coach Adria Kimbrough must quickly re-assemble her team and get them prepped for its first competition at Ole Miss., where generations ago, Black students were denied entry. Times change and the Dillard team rallies, but some victories are bittersweet. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: Dillard University Pre-Law Program American Mock Trial Association University of Mississippi Mock Trial Brown V. Board of Education Must-read books by Black authors (list) Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT Katie Phang: Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. News Anchor: If Ida’s winds verify that 150-mph landfall today, it will tie for the strongest hurricane on record to strike Louisiana’s coast and the strongest to strike the Bayou perishes since Hurrican Betsy. News Anchor: We are keeping an eye on these power lines here because some of these could potentially come down. News Anchor: We’ve got category three gusts, flooding rains that are occurring, and flood warnings in the city, tornado possibilities, as well. News Anchor: This is going all night long. This is not going to stop until tomorrow morning. And the longer the winds blow like this, the more damage there is to the infrastructure. News Anchor: In most areas, you’re looking at 92 to 98 percent of residents without power. News Anchor: This is one of the many trees uprooted by Hurricane Ida’s strong winds throughout the New Orleans area. The hurricane’s devastating impact is obvious. Adria Kimbrough: I left New Orleans with three days of clothes thinking I was coming right back and now it's two weeks later and I don't have anything that is professional to wear. My name is Adria Kimbrough. And I am the coach for the Dillard University Mock Trial Team. Today is September the 20th. Our campus is still closed. Our students have all evacuated to their respective homes or to some place that they decided to evacuate. The city is still very much in recovery. I just got my trash picked up on Saturday, the first time in probably three weeks. We had students who had family members and loved ones who lost folks to COVID. And then to follow that with a hurricane, almost a category five this year, so back to back. So the campus will reopen on Friday and in-person classes will resume on Monday. But certainly what that means, as it relates to our team, is that we are a bit behind. What is it? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Katie Phang [narration]: I'm Katie Phang. This is episode five of Class Action, A Ram in the Bush. DeAndre Bell: It's a desert. It's a desert. Katie Phang [narration]: One week after the campus of Dillard University in New Orleans was shut down because of the damage done by Hurricane Ida. DeAndre Bell: It hurts. It hurts. Katie Phang [narration]: Students like DeAndre Bell are making the best of it. DeAndre Bell: This is Lawless Chapel, this is where we hold all of our church services and things of that nature. If you look you can see that the big main window at the point or the tip of the chapel was blown out. There was a big cross in there, blown out, all that kind of stuff. They had to patch it up with wood. These are the Gardens Apartments, you can't see from here but some of the roofs are slightly caved in because the tree branches and things like that. They have asbestos in the walls and the hurricane shook up the walls enough to release that into the air which is why we had to move into the hotel to begin with. Adria Kimbrough: Good morning, everyone, welcome back. Welcome back. I hope you all got something to eat. While there is truth to it, twice as good as what? Twice as good as whom? Let's just be frank about it. So we're saying twice as good as the standard, which is white. That's really what it means. And so why is white the standard? Why should it be? Why should it be? Instead of measuring ourselves in comparison to others, we figure out what our standard is and work to meet it every time. If it's excellence, it's excellence, period. You all know the history of this team. You know we started the team in one year. The second year we made it to the opening round championship which was just ridiculous. So once the team had achieved to hit that benchmark, then it was like, "Well, now we want to go to nationals because we've been to ORCS." Nationals is the next thing. And I think that third year and since, it's always been nationals, Nationals, Nationals. And that makes sense, that's an admirable goal. Sterling's point was that Nick Saban is not focused on winning this notion... Lajeanne Shelton: My name is Lajeanne. I'm a graduating senior. This would be my fourth and final year on this team. DeAndre Bell: This is DeAndre here I am a junior. This is my third year at Dillard Mock Trial. Amaya Ronczyk: This is Amaya Ronczyk, I'm a graduating senior as well. And it is my fourth and final year. One value that I've learned is being able to lead from every position. I didn't start off as the president or vice president on this team. I started off as a middle attorney or opening attorney. I've been a witness. I've been a timekeeper. I've been a closer and opener and I've had to learn how to help lead my team even when I didn't have all of the accolades to show for it. DeAndre Bell: DeAndre here, for me, one of the biggest takeaways I've gotten from mock trial is the ability to use my voice for something that's not for me. You know what I'm saying? Growing up as a church boy from Texas, there are a lot of flashy things that we do in the church that don't necessarily translate well into the courtroom. So learning how to adjust and modify different approaches has definitely been something that has helped me grow in the mock trial. Adria Kimbrough: Let's think about what we can do today for the task at hand. Again, I'm just mesmerized by this because we talk so much about the end game and we don't always spend as much time talking about doing the things that we need to do to get there. Katie Phang: Lajeanne, what's the most important lesson you take away from having coach Adria and having been on this team? Lajeanne Shelton: Miss Kimbrough, she has been very influential in my life. She's what the old people would say, "She's a ram in the bush." She's always there. She's very much behind the scenes. She's the person who's looking out for you when you think nobody is looking out for you. But I would say the most important lesson I got from Miss Kimbrough was really never to doubt myself. Adria Kimbrough: So I'm thinking perhaps maybe let's do something a little different this year. Maybe we don't talk as much and let's be clear, the goal is the same. But instead taking that same energy and focusing it on what we are doing right now. What are we doing at this bootcamp? What are we going to be doing on Monday at practice? As far as I know, Dillard is the only HBCU other than Howard who has made it to an opening round championship. And so I'm hopeful that there will be more teams, more HBCUs that will consider mock trial teams because I think it's a great activity. Moreover, it's rare for us to see teams that have African American students on the teams, even from other institutions. It's just not something that we see very often. We could espouse all the reasons why that might be but certainly it makes for a learning experience in a different kind of way for our students because they're often in these spaces where they are competing with and competing against students who are from different backgrounds, both racially, ethnically, geographically and otherwise. Katie Phang: Do you think that you're preparing them in some way by managing expectations because I'm a practicing attorney, trial lawyer. You're a practicing attorney. And so you and I have been into the courtrooms. We as in women and women of color are most certainly still the minority in the legal profession. So do you think you are preparing them, like managing their expectations about what to expect because the percentage is woefully low for people of color in the legal profession? Adria Kimbrough: Absolutely. I always remind them. I'm like, "This is what it's going to be guys. This is it. At least you, you have the community of being on a team with people who have similar experiences. You will be the only one." Every place that I have ever practiced, I have been the only one. Most of my practice has been in federal court. Katie Phang: Yeah. Adria Kimbrough: There's no women period, from any color. If you find one, to see another Black woman, even in places in the South where you have larger concentrations of Black people, you would think there may be some diversity showing up in certain spaces and it is not. And so I just remind them like, "This is what it's going to be." I think that's important. It goes back to the point I made earlier about believing that you, number one, deserve to be at the table and number two, that you can compete. And that to me is what being a part on this team means. DeAndre Bell: I do feel as if New Orleans raised me, in some sense. Some people call this the city of sin. People say it's Las Vegas, regardless there's so much here that New Orleans has to offer. And when you feel the city, there's a different power and connection that you have here. So this is the Gentilly area. You will find that many HBCUs across the country are in quote unquote hoods. Howard is a good example. Dillard is a good example. So there are sometimes where we hear on campus, there may be a gunshot. There are some students who don't feel as safe but then you have students like me who are more than willing to be like, "Hey, I got you walk with me. Come with me." Things like that. Student: Good morning Judge Reese. Judge Kern Reese: Good morning. How are you? Student: I'm great. How are you? Judge Kern Reese: Not bad for a Saturday morning. Student: Grand prize everyone. Grand prize. Adria Kimbrough: At the very beginning, I knew very little. I knew nothing about... The Dillard Mock Trial Team is the first and only team I've ever coached. I did not do mock trial as an undergrad. I came to this just with an idea but not with a whole lot of experience. Thank God for Judge Reese. He had done some coaching at the law school level but had never done any coaching at the undergraduate level. Judge Kern Reese: Okay. Let's unpack that. Let's start with unfair prejudice. In this particular case we have a case of arson and let's say there is a really graphic photograph of someone burned to a crisp, down to their bones. Where there's no human flesh left to discern because it's all charred. That sounds like a really gruesome photograph and I'm the prosecutor. I want to present this to the jury to make them absolutely hate the defendant. So Renee... Adria Kimbrough: And so that first year we went to competition, I was like, "We missed this, this, this and this." So the whole time I was taking notes. I'm watching, I'm observing. Judge Kern Reese: So Renee, what's your objection to this photograph? Renee: Objection, your honor. More prejudicial than probative. Judge Kern Reese: And why is that? Renee: Because the probative value of this picture, it will inflame and mislead the jury if they were to see this. Katie Phang [narration]: Adria and Judge Kern Reese play a familiar role for the students. They're family. Adria is the devoted and sometimes demanding mom, sometimes the protective big sister. And Judge Reese, well he's that wise old owl of an uncle who wears a sweater and comfortable shoes on his days off from Civil District Court in Orleans Parish. Renee: ... were to see this. Judge Kern Reese: And it's appealed to prejudice versus reason. And Michelle, so what's your response to that? Katie Phang [narration]: Together, they don't get rattled and they hold their team to high standards. Judge Kern Reese: Just drawing upon experience as a trial litigator, you always have to be able to maintain your composure. There'll be times when people will shock you. There'll be times when people will anger you. There will probably be times when cases can get unbelievably sad and you run through the range of human emotion. But you always have to be a professional and that's what I stress with them. You always have to be prepared to go forward. Something I tell lawyers in court all the time, "I don't tell you how to prove your case. I just tell you to put your case on." Now if you think that the testimony of the coroner is sufficient to carry a burden of proof, which is proof beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal case, then you don't need the picture. But if you want to dot all the I's and cross all the T's and if the judge doesn't let it in but at least I put on my case. To try to establish that I have the testimony of the coroner and I have a picture of the person who died and the jury had the benefit of that to come to their decision. And I will have done everything that I could do to prove my case. Katie Phang [narration]: Dillard, like more than 600 undergraduate mock trial teams across the country will be competing in the American Mock Trial Association's tournament. The team will practice and try the same exact case for the next eight months competing, refining, racking up points that will hopefully lead to a birth at the national championship in April of 2022. Katie Phang: Amaya, you mentioned that you're the captain of this team. Can you briefly tell me, what is this mock case? What is this trial that you guys are going to be doing at Regionals? And what role are you going to play? Amaya Ronczyk: So this is an aggravated arson case. We have a defendant who had spent about a year and a half building up this bar that he got ownership of. And with COVID happening, with people leaving or just the people in the community not responding well to the changes that he was making, he started losing money. And wasn't able to pay back a $1 million loan that he took out from the bank to make those renovations to the bar. He had until August 1st to pay back that loan or pay back a portion of that loan. And he couldn't but he knew that he had a fire insurance policy worth $1.5 million that would cover the cost. So the case is about whether or not he did this and what his motive would have been. I am the closing attorney who directs and crosses the experts on the prosecution side. And then on defense, I actually direct Lajeanne as both an expert and a character witness. And I cross an expert on that side as well. Katie Phang: So to be clear, everybody on the team has to be prepared to switch hats and work as a prosecutor or a defense attorney. Is that right? Amaya Ronczyk: Yes. [slow, soft ethereal piano music] Katie Phang [narration]: The roots of what is now called Dillard University date back to the end of the Civil War. The school was founded by the Methodist Episcopal Church and the American Missionary Association in New Orleans. The school was known as Straight University and in 1875, toward the end of the Reconstruction era had its own law school. Walter Kimbrough: Walter Kimbrough, President of Dillard University in New Orleans. Part of the historic legacy of Dillard University, one of the precursor institutions Straight University, two of the graduates were behind the Plessy versus Ferguson case. So that's just a part of this institution that addressed those kinds of issues of racial justice. Katie Phang [narration]: In 1896, Plessy versus Ferguson was brought before the United States Supreme Court. Homer Plessy was from New Orleans. He was arrested in an act of civil disobedience. He refused to sit in a separate train car for Black passengers. It was an action that could have easily gotten him lynched. Graduates from Straight University formed a citizens committee to fight the case and they hired white attorneys who argued that this law and others like it implied that Black people were inherently inferior and were second-class citizens. They lost that case by a vote of seven to one. The court's decision upheld, the so-called separate but equal doctrine, which cleared the path for racist politicians to enact vile and demeaning segregationist policies known as the Jim Crow laws throughout the South. Yet amid these hardships, the Plessy decision inspired generations of African American attorneys to fight for racial and social justice. Adria Kimbrough: I'm the daughter of civil rights generation parents. I grew up in Mobile, Alabama. It is the home of the last slave ship that was illegally brought to this nation. It is also the home of the last reported clan lynching of Michael Donald in the eighties. There were things that were happening in the community that I grew up in and that just didn't feel right. I wanted to find a way to be a part of that solution. I think when the legal profession and the judiciary starts to look more like the nation, we may see different outcomes. Katie Phang [narration]: The separate but equal law was overturned in 1954 in the Brown versus Board of Education case, a case argued by Chief Counsel Thurgood Marshall. News Reporter: Shortly afternoon, Earl Warren, the Chief Justice of the United States began to read a unanimous opinion of the Supreme Court. Ruling in five cases, in which five Negro children sought the right to go to the same schools as white children, the court said, "Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." Thurgood Marshall: We do believe that this decision in itself will encourage the people to take further steps without litigation in many areas. Katie Phang [narration]: By that time, Dillard University no longer offered a law degree but the pre-law program and its relatively new mock trial team is a vital part of the university's mission. Walter Kimbrough: So that history is I think very important. I think there are things that I've tried to do to make sure that we can make that history living. So for example, doing the pre-law program to me is a living way to remember what happened at Straight. I can always then reference it right back to Straight to say, we had a law school. We had these folks who were involved in Plessy versus Ferguson. So that becomes a natural linkage for us. I look for those kinds of ways of saying, how do we remember our history in a modern sense and move forward with it today? Adria Kimbrough: Yes. So if you didn't get rules of evidence, there's some on the back table, in the mock trial room. They should be already whole punched. You can add it to your binder. We're going to go through these and then the lovely Lajeanne Shelton has some examples for us. I think on relevance. Yes? Lajeanne Shelton: Yes. Adria Kimbrough: Yes. Has some examples- Walter Kimbrough: But I would argue some of our students if they went other places, first of all, they wouldn't even have this opportunity. They wouldn't know it existed. They might not feel comfortable to be on the team. So they've gotten the raw skills but then I think there's a level of confidence building that's being done because it's... To tell them that you can compete on this stage. Adria Kimbrough: And any other questions about the itinerary or travel weekend? Okay. Student: Wardrobe? As an attorney, do I have to wear a suit? Adria Kimbrough: Yes. Well, I mean, we can talk more about it but I think that's preferred. There may be some variation that could work but the suit is the uniform. Walter Kimbrough: We'll make sure that you're appropriately attired so you feel comfortable because we're 70% Pell Grant eligible students. So we have students who literally, they don't have a suit to compete in and Adria has given students her suits so they would have something appropriate to compete in. Adria Kimbrough: Once we break out into groups I'm going to go get the mock trial closet. So I'll bring that in here for folks to take a look at. Renee? Renee: Could you touch real quick on colors of suits that are acceptable and colors of undershirts or blazers and stuff that are- Adria Kimbrough: Yeah. I think dark colors are best. Black, blue, gray are always safe. Outside of that- Walter Kimbrough: So it's all of those things that would've been barriers at other places that they are like, "I can't be on this team. I don't have the ability to go or do." We take care of all those barriers so that they can really focus on developing the craft. And I think that becomes the value-added for them to be at a place like Dillard. [percussive and bass medium-tempo groove] DeAndre Bell: So I look at several lawyers throughout history, of course, Justice Thurgood Marshall. He was an alpha man, a very powerful man in terms of politics, even in church. So he is, of course, one of the main lawyers I look up to especially because of his profound speech, especially when it came to giving arguments, very profound at speaking, especially in court. Then of course you have Johnnie Cochran. I do look up to him. He is the quintessential lawyer in terms of defense and suave while doing it. You'll learn Miss Kimbrough... Well, the sport of mock trial doesn't really allow for that comfort from Black people, unfortunately but Johnnie Cochran was the type of person he would go up say what he had to say, sit back down and people be like, "Whoa, dude." My gosh- Producer: What just happened? DeAndre Bell: Exactly. Student: Hello. Could you transfer me to the office of Senator Maria Cantwell? Thank you. Walter Dixon IV: Hello. My name is Walter Dixon the Fourth. Can you transfer me to Senator Corey Booker? I'm calling today to ask that you support H.R.3294 / S. 1945, IGNITE HBCU Excellence Act. As an HBCU student, this bill will enhance the experience of me and my classmates on campus. Additionally, the IGNITE HBCU Excellence Act will be a critical step to bringing HBCU buildings and research facilities up to date and provide the dynamic talented and- Caitlin Douglas: How are you all doing? Group of students: Pretty good. Good. How are you? Caitlin Douglas: Good. How are the calls going? Student: They're going well. Student: Good- Student: Haven't been able to really get to speak to any senators directly but we have had- Caitlin Douglas: So today we're having a joint text and phone banking event where the students are going to be contacting senators and representatives in support of the HBCU IGNITE Act, which is going to help provide key infrastructure, repair and needs for HBCUs nationwide. Student: Okay. Caitlin Douglas: You all want to do that? You don't have to do it today but maybe I can create a Zoom- Caitlin Douglas: Hey, I'm Caitlin Douglas. I am a transfer student. I am 27 years old. I am technically a sophomore but a junior. This is my first semester at Dillard. I joined the mock trial team because I'm a strategic thinker. I'm a logical person and I said, "What would help me socialize, help me learn the environment of Dillard?" So I do a lot of student engagement, Dillard students are brilliant. They're very intelligent, very smart, very mature. They keep their ear to the ground of what's going on at the other campuses too. Caitlin Douglas: You all know Howard's protesting. We know Tuskegee's protesting too. I don't know if you all- Student [inaudible 00:24:30] too. Caitlin Douglas: Let's figure out these HBCUs that are really vocal about the conditions at their schools and see if we can connect with them. Student: And we can amplify. Student: And amplify it and do like a- Student: We can do a video or like a- Caitlin Douglas: I am heavily involved in activism back home in Shreveport Louisiana. After my first experience with undergraduate studies, I took about a four-year hiatus. I was smart as a whip but because I was depressed and I didn't have that support and then I had hardships. I had two family members and a childhood friend died, one was killed. My cousin was shot two weeks ago. He now will never have the tip of his thumb and they had to remove his appendix. He's a truck driver. My cousin, that same cousin, has been beaten by the police just because they got the wrong guy. My sister's boyfriend was murdered in front of her. I had to go to the scene and see that. I look at it as I'm running towards this direction and then just obstacles are pushing me back to Shreveport. Talk about how we can get more in their face. You all want to do that? I'm a troublemaker to a lot of people especially because before I worked with Power Coalition back home. I'm from Shreveport, Louisiana. I was very heavily involved in protesting, marching and grassroots activism. And so I'm deemed pretty aggressive most of the time because I stand tenn what I believe in- Producer: It's good trouble. Caitlin Douglas: Yeah. It's a good trouble. I make good trouble. [interior of car, driving] DeAndre Bell: I just push the button for the ticket. Producer: Okay. So where are we now? DeAndre Bell: So this is the hotel parking lot. Unfortunately, Dillard students, we're working with it. We're working with what we have but we have to walk just a little bit to get to the actual hotel. I hope you all don't mind. Producer: That makes sense. That's fine. [exterior, daytime, city streets of New Orleans, walking] DeAndre Bell: Downtown is a walk and I will say, I like to walk so I'm not really too bothered by it because it's difficult. You walk down the street, now what you don't see while it's daytime is there are homeless people that do sleep alongside this. So it's dangerous because it can get dark really fast. But with that in mind, I feel like a lot of students have begun to use some buddy system, walking in pairs, driving in pairs, things of that nature just to ensure that people are safe. [hotel room key card, enter hotel room] This right here is my room. It's pretty clean. I ain't have no problem with that but this is where I lay my head at night. It's literally just a standard hotel room, no amenities necessarily for students or anything like that. Just simple living quarters. Your mother won't sit on the bed. But simple living quarters, usual things but I try to make it as close to home as possible. I got some seasoning right here, a couple of sauce packets and things in case I get nuggets or whatever the case may be. A couple of cups. So whenever I go out, take a little souvenir cup put it right here. Students at Dillard were allowed to bring some of their items from the dorm to the hotel. So I brought my microwave. I brought a second refrigerator because the one here is absolutely tiny and this is just some leftover food from last night. Obviously, drawers right here. I don't necessarily use them all too often because I don't want to just have stuff sitting here. But I do have like my belts and my ties for whatever, mock trial prime example, it's my little tie box. I have a bunch of different colored ties and things of that nature. I do have some snacks right here, a drawer. So I can explain these are not all mine. These are also some of my friends. Again, there are times where I have to link up with them outside of school. So this is our snack drawer in case we need to get a bite to eat or something before we leave. Something like that. Disregard that. I promise those are not all mine. This is my quote unquote library if you will. I love to read. Producer: Give us a few titles. DeAndre Bell: Absolutely. So we have Black Power , which is a book by Kwame Ture, Stokely Carmichael and Charles V. Hamilton. Part of my politics is helping Black people, just like everybody else is getting helped. And so to have that background would be very essential moving forward. Barack Obama. Yes. I got this book for my birthday actually. So I started telling my family, I wanted to run for President. Man, Barack Obama has been a big influence for me in terms of doing that. The man did it all. My dad once said and I disagree with this but he was like, "If Barack Obama was perfect and everybody had a problem with him, then you're going to have to work even harder because you're not as perfect." And he's right. Absolutely. But it's like Barack Obama, wasn't perfect either. And the promise land is a prime example of that. And now look at him, former President of the United States, he was a lawyer. He was doing all these big things. Naturally, it's some shoes that I'd like to fill into. Adria Kimbrough: The departure time is set for three and the departure will be in front of the bookstore. I guess there's a slight chance- Katie Phang [narration]: It's Halloween weekend and you can feel the excitement in the air. The team's first competition is coming up at the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss. This is their first in-person tournament in more than a year. For a lot of the students, it's their first time ever competing without Zoom. It's a big deal. Adria Kimbrough: It takes about five hours or so to get to Oxford, which is where Ole Miss is located. There will be a midpoint stop for dinner, based upon our calculations, Jackson, Mississippi appears to be a midway point. So we'll be scouting out places to eat in Jackson but probably things that will be relatively- Katie Phang [narration]: Adria is sending two teams to Mississippi. Team B is led by Amaya and Lajeanne. Team A features DeAndre and Caitlin who will play an expert witness. Both teams will be coached by Judge Reese and Alicia Frison. Alicia Frison: The biggest thing is gelling and becoming incredibly comfortable in a courtroom. It's supposed to be a space that's supposed to beat professionalism into you and make you feel like you don't belong. Especially for Black people and people of color it's a space institutionally rooted in disenfranchising people of color. And I really intentfully wanted to be a part of this team to help train future Black litigators to embrace that space. You belong here and we're going to make it work. It rewrites history. It takes back all that strength from our ancestors. Katie Phang [narration]: The Dillard team is the first to arrive and they take their seats right down in front, something unthinkable a generation ago. News Reporter: James H. Meredith is formally enrolled at the University of Mississippi ending one chapter in the federal government's efforts to desegregate the university. The town of Oxford is an armed camp following riots that accompany the registration of the first Negro in the university's 118-year history. Much of this film record was destroyed when our cameraman Gordon Yoder was attacked but he did salvage pictures of Governor Ross Barnett at the scene. The governor fought the court order long and bitterly- Judge Kern Reese: Obviously, 50 years ago, well, maybe go back to about 1963, we wouldn't have been here at all. That's a given and actually, I was a child, got... Caught at the tail in the segregation and some of its aftermath and it was not pretty. It was humiliating, dehumanizing, embarrassing, mortifying and every other superlative you can come up with. Host Student 1: All right, it’s about 9:05. Ready to start opening ceremonies. [crowd applause in auditorium] Host Student 2: So first off, I just want to say... Give a big thank you for everyone who decided to come to our tournament this year. We're really excited to have y'all here. And thank you for coming to the Second Annual Chucky Mullins Spooktacular Invitational. First, a few things, the University of Mississippi does have a mask protocol here. We have six rooms. Host Student 1: With that being said, we're going to start with the challenge order. So Rhodes A, who would you like to challenge? Rhodes Student: We would like to challenge the Universit Host Student 1: Okay. And UT Knox which side would you like to be? UT Knox Student: [inaudible 00:33:34] defense. Host Student 1: Okay. And that leads us to Dillard A, who would you like to challenge? DeAndre Bell: Ole Miss. Host Student 1: All right. And which side of the case would you like to be? DeAndre Bell: Prosecution. Host Student 1: All right. And then UAB? UAB Student: [inaudible 00:33:49] challenge Dillard B. Host Student 1: Okay. And which side of the case would you like to be? [crowd of students chat and disperse] Lajeanne Shelton: It's our first time being back and I just really miss seeing people in real life. So we just wanted to introduce ourselves just to get to know everyone. Student: How long have you been doing mock trials? Lajeanne Shelton: We've been doing mock trials since we got to Dillard. So this is our last time. Student: Last time, we're glad to have you here. Lajeanne Shelton: I'm supposed to [inaudible 00:34:17]. Student: What your name? Amaya Ronczyk: Amaya. Student: Amaya. Amaya Ronczyk: We go to Dillard University. Yeah. Lajeanne Shelton: And what's your name? Student: McKenzie. Lajeanne Shelton: McKenzie? Nice to meet you McKenzie. Hi. Lily: My name is Lily. Lajeanne Shelton: Lily? Lily: Lily. Lajeanne Shelton: Lily, my name is Lajeanne- Lily: Lajeanne that's so cool. Lajeanne Shelton: Lajeanne here. There have been times when we went to competitions and as an all-Black team, when there are other Black people within like all white teams, being all Black team is going to stand out and those people are going to gravitate to you naturally. People will be like, I've been trying to be an attorney for the past two competitions and I've been trying out but they've been just sticking me in this witness role. Or I'll try to be an expert witness and they just want me to play the cook and make it about like Southern-style cooking or soul food cooking. You have people come up to us saying I'm being placed in this box. It's not what we're noticing is but what we're being told. DeAndre Bell: If you would bow your heads, close your eyes, pray in your culture as I do. Father God, we come to you right now saying thank you Father. Thank you for giving us the season. Thank you for delivering us from all sorts of hurt, harm and danger. Father God we thank you, for bringing us to this courthouse. We thank you for this competition. We thank you for the growth that we've had and the journey that we've been on. We thank you, Father God. But we are here now. Amen. Dillard team: Amen. DeAndre Bell: Amen. Lord. Dillard team: Ready? Yes. Rhodes Team: Blood makes the grass grow. Kill, kill, kill. Blood makes the grass grow. Kill, kill, kill. Blood makes the grass grow. Kill, kill, kill. Blood makes the grass grow. Kill, kill, kill. Murder on three. Murder on three. One, two, three. Murder. Katie Phang [narration]: With teams from all over the south competing. The Ole Miss courtrooms are positively buzzing. For Dillard, the action bounces from one courtroom to the next. Team A is squaring off against Ole Miss. Witness: I mentioned earlier. DeAndre Bell: So you have limited experience in fraud and that's because you failed the certified fraud examiner accreditation. Isn't that correct? Witness: Yes but that credential wasn't necessary. DeAndre Bell: Now just to clarify, to be a forensic financial investigator, you have to have expert level knowledge and fraud. Isn't that right? Witness: Yes. But I also... I did get the certified financial forensics and I did that completing the exam and doing our 5,000 hours in the field, as I mentioned earlier. DeAndre Bell: Thank you for that but my question was very specific. You failed the certified fraud examiner test but you need expert level fraud knowledge to testify about fraud. Isn't that correct? Witness: Yes. But as I mentioned earlier, that credential wasn't necessary. DeAndre Bell: Thank you, your honor. I have nothing further. Katie Phang [narrator]: And in her debut as a witness, Caitlin Douglas is acting out her role as the fire inspector. C ompetitor: You're being paid by the defense to be here today. Caitlin Douglas: Yes but that's standard in my field. Katie Phang: And in her debut as a witness, Caitlin Douglas is acting out the role of the fire inspector. S Competitor: And your job was to review Dr. Weber's report. Caitlin Douglas: It was to review his investigation. Yes. Competitor: You also visited the scene didn't you? Caitlin Douglas: I did. Competitor: But this was three months after the fire had occurred, correct? Caitlin Douglas: That's correct. And it actually made the scene a little better to view because I was able to look at everything that had transpired over a course of time. Competitor: But within that three months, alterations could have been made- Katie Phang [narration]: Down the hall Dillard's upper class members Lajeanne and Amaya are already in fighting form. Amaya Ronczyk: May it please the court, opposing counsel, members of the jury. These photos that I have in my hands and that were presented before you earlier in this trial show you exactly how beloved firefighter Jaylen Williams died on August 1st, 2020. The damages in these photos show how the fire was started in the kitchen by an accelerant found in paint thinner. These damages show, every horrific detail. I think it's important that there's a place for lawyers that work with empathy, that sympathize with their clients that understand that there's more behind the story. And I think whenever you get in that courtroom, it's important that the person that's sitting at the defendant's table, that their story is portrayed in a way that makes the jury or the judge empathize or place themselves in their shoes. but what these photos can't show you is the real damage that happened that night. You see, when you go to Breckenridge County Fire Department, you'll find Jaylen Williams locker empty. When you go to his home, you'll see that his seat at the table is gone. And when you talk to his parents, they'll tell you how they'll never see his smiling face again. It was easy for the defendant to forget that when she lit the match at Chuggy's, someone else's life could go up in flames with it. It was easy for her to forget because the only thing she was worried about- [in another courtroom] Lajeanne Shelton: During trial today, there was a story painted to you by the prosecution. And I just want to go over that story. They wanted to tell me that Dakota Sutcliffe walked around their business and looked at everything they poured into it. Pouring into the lights for the business. Having a new electrical box installed, redoing the floor, revamping the bar, even opening a patio area and a downstairs seating area. Decided to open a can of paint thinner and spread it all way around. And then after spreading that paint thinner around, they want you to believe that as she looked upon this place, she decided to take a match and light it. Not only do they want you to believe that she is the person who could have done this and that she wanted her place to burn down. They want you to believe that she would go to put it out. She wanted this place burned down but instead she went to the firehouse to stop the fire. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a story. There are three things that you heard today from the prosecution. They talked about debt. They talked about distress and they talked about death more than the three elements they had to prove. But there's one thing they left out and that's doubt. Now let's talk about that doubt that we see.... It's in the back of my head like this is the last, this is your last. The first time you're getting in the gate for your last time of being on this team. And of course that's always going to -- that's looming over this whole entire competition and you want to do your best of course. But I also want to be in the moment and enjoy this competition. I don't want to be so caught up in the competing aspect, like the competitiveness. I want to also have fun because my trial should be fun. It's so fun. Now when you go into that jury room and you deliberate over the evidence that you have saw today and you see that doubt, you see the very thing. The prosecution has tried to pull the wool over your eyes for. And we ask that you delivered the only just verdict, not just for Jaylen Williams but Dakota Sutcliffe. That you find Dakota Sutcliffe not guilty because the prosecution didn't do the job for Jaylen Williams. They didn't wait the smoke to clean. Thank you. Judge: Rebuttal? Competitor: Yes, your Honor. Katie Phang [narration]: The judges in both rooms give high praise to the Dillard team. Judge 1: We had some good attorney exchanges, Anthony and Lajeanne. Lajeanne Shelton: Lajeanne. Judge 1: Lajeanne. Sorry. Lajeanne Shelton: It's okay. Judge 1: Okay. I'm sure you get it, occasionally. You all had a really good back and forth there on the 803-15 witnesses. I enjoyed the witnesses. Make sure you keep eye contact with the judges. Make sure you slow down. Some of you speak really quickly. For us Southern born lived people, sometimes we don't talk that fast. So just slow it down a little bit but I thought y'all did a really good job. I think you're all doing quite well. Judge 2: Opening for the prosecution was good. And it would occurred to me at that point in time that I wish we had jurors. And there was a moment where I thought about asking everybody to go sit over there, going to the prosecution's first witness, very vibrant witness and enjoyed that thought. It was a very strong cross examination. I really like when you're... “I'm sorry. Thank you. But that's not exactly what I ask. Let me reword that question.” No, I love that. That was great. What a great way to deal with an evasive witness. I was very impressed with that. On the other hand, impeachment with the affidavit, didn't quite go as well as you planned. So these are little tidbits on top of the basic thing, which is you guys did a great job. Good luck. Rest of the way. [Students disperse from courtroom] Alicia Frison Listen up, listen up. Everybody get your notepads, come with me. I just need some hands to go get the boxes. Student: That's our food right there. Alicia Frison: Yeah. Katie Phang [narration]: The team spills out onto some of the couches in the hallways while lunch boxes are passed around. Amaya Ronczyk: I'm trying to memorize the stuff for the next route. You want to do one run through Lajeanne while we're eating lunch. Lajeanne Shelton: I think I should tell you something. Amaya Ronczyk: What? Lajeanne Shelton: The young lady who was the middle attorney, she said, she really appreciated how you were all Black woman team of color as attorneys. Amaya Ronczyk: All Black woman team of color. Lajeanne Shelton: She said, I liked how all your attorneys were women. It made her feel really empowered as a woman to see all. She said, I feel really intimidated by men in this space and just to see all women attorney team and especially women of color, she said it was really impactful. Amaya Ronczyk: That's great. Alicia Frison: Especially coming from her school too. That's nice to see. Yeah. Caitlin Douglas: Let me catch you up breath. Caitlin Douglas. I think first of all, I'm very proud of my team. All the practice really showed up today and I think we got a chance to work out some of those nerves between leaving campus, congregating on the bus and then getting into the hotels and getting comfortable and settled. So I'm very proud of the outcomes. Lajeanne and DeAndre have crossed me way harder in practice. They make it to where you're prepared. And so I feel like “You all are competing at the law school level” comment. I feel like it's because we have team members who push us and that's important for somebody like me. Katie Phang [narration]: But their coaches are not about to let them get too overconfidence. Alicia Frison: When you let that sit there and rest, you let them set the tone for what's going on. Your judge doesn't know your law, your judge isn't judging that. They're going like, "Okay, the state's bringing their case. This is how we're going to go." Shut it down. Do not respond back to their relevance issue on their ground. They have to prove that the purpose was to defraud if he burned down his own building. And you ended right there and you make them look stupid by letting them know, like you don't even know what... And I would walk all over them in the closing. Student Yes, ma’am. Judge Kern Reese: This is the first round of the first tournament. So there is always room for improvement. DeAndre Bell: Absolutely. Caitlin Douglas: Right. Judge Kern Reese: I thought some things were done very well. Some things were done okay. Some things need some work. I think that from a technical proficiency standpoint we did well, thought you handled the objections. Well, a lot of objections weren't made. Caitlin Douglas: That's what I said. Lajeanne Shelton I didn't expect a whole lot from the very first competition though. I expected people to just lay low, see how it goes. Judge Kern Reese: Well, you will come up against teams that will be well prepared. DeAndre Bell: Especially at this first competition. Judge Kern Reese: This is the first blood. Student: This [inaudible 00:46:46] your toe in the water. Judge Kern Reese: It gets more interesting as we go. Student: Yeah. Judge Kern Reese: Overall, I was not displeased with the performance because if I was, I would let you know. Caitlin Douglas: Yeah. Amaya Ronczyk: We know. Lajeanne Shelton: We know. Caitlin Douglas: That’s good enough for us! But we love it. Katie Phang [narration]: As the tournament moves on to the second day, Dillard is clearly stacking up the wins. DeAndre Bell: This is DeAndre. Yes, I know what my team score is. I think everyone will be pleased with the outcome. My team, me, Caitlin, everybody is 6 and 0, meaning we won both ballots for all three rounds. So it's amazing. Katie Phang [narration]: And you can feel the confidence and the focus coming through from their team huddles. Amaya Ronczyk: Please confirm my suspicion. Madox does not say that he spilled that, did he? DeAndre Bell: No he does not, I just read it- Lajeanne Shelton: We need to be ready to impeach. DeAndre Bell: Yes. Amaya Ronczyk: Yeah. You're going to do that. DeAndre Bell: And Tobin- Amaya Ronczyk: You did really good, Alex. You did good. You were a little combative and you know that. Caitlin Douglas: They're going to flip. Amaya Ronczyk: [inaudible 00:48:06] need to make any comments, you all focus on this [inaudible 00:48:07]. I'm going to practice this [inaudible 00:48:08]. Student: Okay. Which one is it? Amaya Ronczyk: It's this one. Lajeanne Shelton: This. Amaya Ronczyk: Yeah. You were hired by defense, correct? Lajeanne Shelton: Yes. I was. Amaya Ronczyk: You were hired to review the record of officer Weber, right? Lajeanne Shelton: Yes. I was. Amaya Ronczyk: You would agree with me that officer Weber made a determination of -- Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I just thought of something. They're saying Madox did it. And Madox spilled the accelerant. They can't say that because of the fire wasn't accelerant. What do we do? Do we mention that in closing? Student: Yes. Amaya Ronczyk: I think we should go in early. I need to show you those documents. Student: That would be time now [inaudible 00:48:51]. [students walk into courtroom from hallway] Katie Phang: So I read a really interesting clip about or about you, Lajeanne, about your voice and the tenor, the tone, the volume and how that gets construed and how there's a judgment that comes. Especially for women when it comes to how we use our voice, literally sometimes. How do you use your voice? So as a small anecdote, I was in court one time with a judge and this judge knew me very well. And I was cross-examining a defendant, as you guys know, was very rare in criminal court because defendants usually don't take the stand but he did. And I was cross-examining him. And it was just a probation violation hearing. So there was no jury, it was just the judge but it was a packed courtroom. And the judge because the Public Defender objected and said that I was badgering the witness, which was really the defendant. And the judge goes, "I'm not really going to sustain that. But Ms. Phang, I'd asked that you stay behind the podium." Because I had come out from behind the podium to be able to approach the witness box where the defendant was testifying. So what I did was because it wasn't bolted down, I just took the podium with me. So I moved the podium closer to the witness box and I looked at the judge and I said, "I'm still behind the podium judge." So my question for you Lajeanne is, do you feel offended when it's brought to your attention that you sound aggressive or does it just water off your back? Because you know that part of that is just it's perception, it's because you're a woman maybe because you're a woman of color and somebody has a problem with how you're using your voice. Lajeanne Shelton: That is an excellent question, Katie. Because we talk about this so often, I'll bring up a small anecdote to just go into how I personally feel about it. At a tournament, keep in mind that my co-counsel is all women and we're all Black women. And I think at that time, every witness we had was also a woman too. So there's these three female attorneys, Black female attorneys. And Amaya says this all the time. She's like, Lajeanne is always going to do her best when she's going up against a white man. Like that's what they were. And I put my poker face on the whole time and I do what I have to do. At the end of trial, one of the opposing counsels, this young man, he comes up to me, he shakes my hand really aggressively and says, "You're literally so scary. You are so scary." I'm trying not to like react too much to it. And I'm like, "I hope not in a bad way." And he's like, "No, not really. It's just you were really going after what you want." And then he is like, "Maybe you just know too much, you just know a lot and that's just crazy." And I'm like, "Okay, so am I not supposed to know enough? Maybe you need to know what I know." The comments come. It's not going to, it's not my first comment like that, it's not going to be my last. Those comments like that, we get all the time. You just realize it and you take it and you very much take it as a compliment, because that's basically what it is, they were threatened by you, in some way, shape or form. They weren't expecting you to give the performance that you gave. So that's them, that's all on them. So yeah, it hurts in the moment. But then you remember but that's life. I'm going to get this regardless. So I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I still got a 10 on that, on whatever the part he said I scared him at, that's all that matters. ...a special element that was referenced in that closing. Ladies and gentlemen you heard today that, that very witness has no certification to be able to examine fraud and to see if fraud was around in any evidence they brought today. And even with that, they got up on this stand and told you I saw no evidence of fraud. I looked over a loan statement. I looked over a fire insurance policy. I looked at every single transaction of Chuggy's and I saw no fraud. Ladies and gentlemen to fraud is an element in the case. And they brought forward a witness that disproves that element. And last but not least they brought to you Alex Silva, Breckeridge County firefighter. And while we do sympathize with Mr. Silva and the family of Jaylen Williams, he told... Judge: Overall, was great job, Mr. Bell, you're speaking rhythm is outstanding. If you ever decide to not go to law school, I think you could be a preacher. Lajeanne Shelton: [laughter] He’s the deacon of our team. Judge: I'm telling you, man, just your rhythm and pacing is outstanding, is amazing. And so if you choose to not do law, you can find a vocation man. I can't think of any other general comments. You all did well, keep it up, keep up the good work and good luck the rest of the season. Judge 2: What school is prosecution from? Student: Dillard. [students disperse from courtroom] Troy Skipworth: I'm Troy Skipworth. I'm from the University of North Alabama and Florence, Alabama. Dillard, the kids always come with such joy. You can tell they enjoy what they do. They enjoy being there. They enjoy the opportunity and that comes across in what they do. And so they're a joy to judge in that sense. And so you don't find that from all the teams but they always bring the energy. So I enjoy judging them. Judge 3: Everybody did great but I will call both of you out the two on the end. Amaya, is it Amaya, is that right? Amaya Ronczyk: Yes. Judge 3: And then Ella, I think y'all were excellent overall, Judge 4: But yeah, same thing. Closing is very polished, good job. Both you all very good job. They're mostly about intonation where to start vocally instead of starting [inaudible 00:55:55] here or way down on here, [inaudible 00:55:55] start in the middle. That kind of stuff. Think peaks and valleys. Vocal intensity. Because you're both very good public speakers but you just need to know where to start. Because if you start all the way up here vocally, whether it's with your tone, whether it's with your volume, anything like that, the only place you can go is down. Whereas if you start all the way down here, the only place you can go is up. So start at a happy medium so you have more room to fluctuate as you're talking. So and break! Lajeanne Shelton: Thank you. Judge 3: I love doing this, it's great. It's really enjoyable though. Seeing teams like you all actually prepare and do stuff, flesh out theories, flesh out characters, stuff like that. But the thing is teams like you all make it worth it showing up and actually being engaging, being entertaining, stuff like that. Because we don't want to be bored to tears for three hours. So thank you all for that. That was really nice. Judge Kern Reese: The saying goes, stick a fork in this, we’re done. This was in the books. All right, come on let's go down Katie Phang [narration]: As the tournament comes to a close, all of the exhausted students pile into the auditorium for the closing ceremonies and award announcements. Host Student 3: You can actually breathe easy now, this competition is over with and it's time for closings. So get excited. Host Student 2: We actually had no 18 rank top attorneys. So we go straight into 19. With 19 ranks from team The Conjuring, Dillard A, on the defense side, DeAndre Bell. [crowd applause and cheers] Also with 19 ranks on the prosecution side from team Insidious, Dillard B, Amaya Ronczyk. [crowd applause and cheers] And finally we had a perfect scoring attorney on the defense side, Dillard B, Lajeanne Shelton. [crowd applause and cheers] We had two 19 ranked witnesses. They are actually both from the same team on defense with 19 ranks from team Insidious, Dillard B, Sterling Bond. [crowd applause and cheers] And that second ninth team ranked witness also won an attorney award from team Insidious, Dillard B, Lajeanne Shelton. [crowd applause and cheers] We had one witness who received a perfect score on the defense side with 20 ranks, from Dillard A, Caitlin Douglas. [crowd applause and cheers] Congratulations to all of our top witnesses and our attorneys. Now we're going to move on to the Spirit of AMTA Award. I love it. It shows that you are a kind team that you care about others, that people like to work with you. And that you're just a good sport. So it's honestly my favorite award. I think it's the best award to receive. We had one team receive it and that would be Dillard B. [crowd applause and cheers] Host Student 1: So at this tournament, we are giving out three team awards but we do first and Honorable Mention that we'd like to announce with five and a half ballots, a CS of 13 and a half and a PD of 28 that is Rhodes B, Friday the 13th. [crowd applause and cheers] In third place, Dillard A, the Conjuring. [crowd applause and cheers] And in second place Rhodes C, The Purge. [crowd applause and cheers] And finally first place the winner of this year's Second Annual Chucky Mullins Spooktacular version of the Invitational, Poltergeist, Tennessee. [crowd applause and cheers] Student: [crowd chatter] I'm so proud of you. Congratulations! Judge Kern Reese: So proud of you. Caitlin Douglas: I was so happy [inaudible 01:00:36]. Amaya Ronczyk: Thank you so much. Caitlin Douglas: Thank You so much. I really am surprised. Judge Kern Reese: If we had had our top performers all on the same team. Producer: Yeah. Judge Kern Reese: But we want to teach the younger ones how to do it right. So we broke the team up and put inexperienced people with the veterans so they learn. Producer I was a little surprised but... [Dillard team walks towards team bus] Lajeanne Shelton: Even though we drop those two ballots, obviously more work needs to be done. I love that. I'm not upset about the two ballots we [inaudible 01:01:20] because I can see where we need to improve. Alicia Frison: And it's good that we're having these moments early on, because, we're getting to have a temperature of what's going on, where we need to focus our energy. So this was great. This is great. Lajeanne Shelton: But I'm going to go call my dad. Judge Kern Reese: Call him and tell him. He deserves a more proud moment. Alicia Frison: My God. Judge Kern Reese: Yes, indeed. DeAndre Bell: I am overjoyed admittedly. Now I do have some reservations in terms of the last round. You all were in there. So you all heard what was going on. I could have sworn, the team could have sworn that we were about to go in there and take the first place trophy with the perfect score. It's going to be interesting with looking at the balance, especially reviewing them with Judge Reese but all in all I'm proud of the team. We all came with the mission and that mission was to grow and we did just that. Producer: So where are you taking them now? Judge Kern Reese: Home. We got a five-hour ride in front of us and we got to stop and get something to eat somewhere. So we'll probably get home around midnight Producer: And what happens tomorrow? Judge Kern Reese Tomorrow they get a day off and get ready for our next tournament, which is in two weeks. Dillard team: Bye Ole Miss! [bus drives away] [theme music, hip-hop motivational groove] Ellie Sands: Yes, your Honor. The plaintiff has a few housekeeping matters to attend to firstly would your honor like a courtesy copy of the plaintiff's notice of appearance? Judge: No, I don't need one. Ellie Sands: Would your Honor like a brief recitation of the facts for today's case? Judge: Not as a housekeeping matter. No. Ellie Sands: Additionally, your Honor. Permission to have local rules constructively read into the record. Judge: Local rules do not need to be read into the record. Katie Phang [narration]: That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Created, produced, written and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Additional story production by Jennifer Swann, Kristin Cabrera, Jason Foster and Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norville. Sound design editing and mixing by Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine. This episode had additional field production by Nikka Troy and Matt Wymer. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. [END] Previous Next

< Back LAJEANNE SHELTON Student, Dillard University "The young lady who was the middle attorney, she said that she really appreciated that we were a team of all Black women. It made her feel really empowered as a woman." Previous Next

< Back JUSTIN PETEREIT Student, University of South Dakota "You have to find a way to make your style fit with what you're trying to accomplish." Previous Next

< Back JOE LESTER with guest, Director of Advocacy Programs and Competitions, American University "They're changed people when they go out, compete and come back. It's transformative. And you don't get that sitting in a contract class. But you do when you learn how to try a case." Previous Next

< Back Episode 4 4. The Battle of the Experts Air date: June 21, 2022 Dawn breaks for the “Battle of the Experts.” In San Antonio, St. Mary’s team rookie Mariela Encinas prays for success at the Red Mass, the 13th-century Catholic ceremony that traditionally offers a blessing to the legal community for the upcoming court year. In South Dakota, the team gets stoked up on pasta and smoothies. Coach Rose makes it simple for her team, telling them “Blood makes the grass grow." Then, the judges call the trials to order, and it is on. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: St. Mary's University Law School University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law Elie Honig Drexel University Thomas R. Kline School of Law Up Against the Mob with Elie Honig Archdiocese of San Antonio and the Red Mass | Twitter | Instagram San Antonio Bar Association | Twitter | Instagram Mexican American Bar Association | Twitter | Instagram San Antonio Young Lawyers Association | Instagram Goodfellas Jason Goss , St. Mary's coach Jennifer Maritza Perez-Stewart , St. Mary's coach FRIDA Mexican Restaurant Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT Katie Phang (narration): Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. [church bells] [Music: classical Spanish guitar] Mariela Encinas: I went to Catholic school my whole life. It's meaningful in the sense that I told Sister Grace a few days ago, that I wasn't quite sure why God brought me to St. Mary's. And this year has been very special in the sense that not only mock trial has showed me that that's why I'm here because of this team, this AJ and Coach Goss, they're all so phenomenal at what they do. But I definitely think it was God's way of bringing me back to my religion. Mariela Encinas: Hi, I'm Mariela Encinas. So I'm helping with the flowers. We just set up the masks. I set up the candles, the volunteer stuff. The judges will get robed and be ready. So we're just kind of preparing last minute things. This morning I was at work and I had to finish up numbering all the banners to make sure that they were all ready and just the finishing touches, that's about it. So the Red Mass is an ancient tradition that started back in 1245 in Paris. And it basically marks the beginning of the academic and the judicial year. And it's a way for us to pray for the administration of justice that's going to occur in this next judicial year. Red Mass at St. Mary's is a huge deal. Mariela Encinas: You're going to get your banner. You're going to process in. Are you a representative? Red Mass Coordinator Candle guards Catholic Lawyers Guild of San Antonio, St. Mary's University Law Alumni, Hispanic Law, Roses in Memoriam. Mariela Encinas: So everybody in the legal organizations, the different courts in San Antonio and in Bexar County, they all come in with a banner. And so the San Antonio Bar, San Antonio Chapter of the Federal Bar, San Antonio Young Lawyers Association, San Antonio's Mexican Bar Association, each legal organization has their own representative. And that's been pretty neat to see how excited they are for Red Mass. We asked one of our deans to hold the mace in the beginning and she was like, "I've always wanted to do it. I'm so excited." Kristen Cabrera: Right now, Red Mass has started. And the procession of the banners is happening. (Singing – Catholic Mass choir, church hymn) Archbishop Gustavo García-Siller: Clergy, President Mengler, Marianists, Sister Grace, thank you for making special this celebration of the Mass. As we pray to the Holy Spirit to make of all of us, all of us, servant leaders. The purpose of this Red Mass is clear enough. It invokes God's guidance and a strength during the court term to come. And our wearing of the liturgical red signifies the willingness to defend the truth inspired by the Holy Spirit and for the nation. Also, human law may hopefully preserve us from anarchy. It is not enough to bind up our country's wounds and we know it. And not only the country, the state, our city. (Singing – Catholic Mass choir, church hymn) Katie Phang (narration): Just a few weeks after the start of the fall semester, the first big national trial competition, The Battle of the Experts is about to get underway. I'm Katie Phang, and you're listening to another episode of Class Action, The Battle of the Experts, Episode Four. With the COVID 19 Delta variant sweeping through college campuses, this will be a virtual competition. A quick summary. The case is, let's say, very similar to the murder depicted in the movie, Goodfellas . Philip Pasquarello: This case file is the prosecution of the Joe Pesci character, for all intents and purposes. Katie Phang (narration): So the fact pattern in this mock case, Billy Caffiero, a made member of the mafia is beaten in a Pennsylvania bar, and then later stabbed to death and buried. Prosecutors accused Joe Pesci, I mean, Tommy Santosuosso of murder, in the first degree. Philip Pasquarello: I am a huge mob movie, mob TV show fan. My name's Phil Pasquarello. I'm the tournament director for The Battle of the Experts. On the other side of the case, we've got the bartender who was in the bar that night and heard the insult. And we've got a mafia expert, who's going to say, "This murder just doesn't really add up as it relates to the rules of the mafia. It doesn't seem like the government story makes a whole lot of sense.” It's the first tournament of the season. I wanted my school and this tournament to be opening day. I am really excited to be at the coaches' meeting with all the coaches and say, "Welcome to the 2021-2022 season." All the directors and coaches and students are junkies for this. They love this stuff. These are the 16 teams, in no particular order: Baylor Law, Quinnipiac Law, Chicago Kent Law, Pace, American, Nova Southeastern, South Carolina, St. Mary's, Temple, South Dakota, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Stetson, Pacific McGeorge, Cumberland and University of Illinois-Chicago John Marshall. Andy Vizcarra: Why are you looking at... What are you doing? Jasmin Olguin: Oh, I was seeing... Oh, were you asking me? I thought that was [crosstalk 00:06:39]- Andy Vizcarra: No, she was asking Houdini. Jasmin Olguin: That was everybody? And everybody was there. Katie Phang (narration): St. Mary's mock trial team is wide awake, over-caffeinated in fact. They're hunkered down at a hotel in San Antonio and are operating on very little sleep. Coach Jason Goss fills them in on what happened at the tournament's coaches' meeting last night. Jason Goss: Here's the deal, power pairing. So this is power paired every round, except for the first round. The first round was a challenge round, which we actually didn't get challenged, which you know what that means? Jasmin Olguin: They're scared of us. Jason Goss: Nobody wanted a piece of us. Jasmin Olguin: No, I'm just kidding. Jason Goss: [crosstalk 00:07:13] give us the opportunity to do it, nobody wanted it. So we ended up being just the last ones left and nobody challenged it, so... Jasmin Olguin: That's exciting. Jason Goss: That's cool, you know? That's cool, because you have like the UCLA's of the world and everybody else. Katie Phang (narration): UCLA, Temple, Baylor. Those are the perennial mock trial power houses. St. Mary's ranks near the middle of the pack. But this is a new season and upsets can happen. Trial team captain Andy Vizcarra and Jasmin Olguin are the team's top guns. Andy Vizcarra: There's a lot going on today. And we didn't have backdrops last year. And Cole and Maria are like brand spanking new to this. Jasmin's like freaking out, Jasmin, I need you to get into defense mode like you did last night. Jasmin Olguin: For reals? No, Andy I'm here for you, because you're doing the most right now. Andy Vizcarra: Okay, it's fine. Which one is it? Why is no one answering my question? Jasmin Olguin: No, it's right here, Andy. 106. Andy Vizcarra: Okay. Jasmin Olguin: What team is 106? Judge: Outstanding. Oh wait, sorry, they sent me a script. I want to make sure I use their script. Katie Phang (narration): The judge is already logged in and waiting. Judge: I'm apparently supposed to say hi to everyone. We're waiting on a few people get started. I haven't heard from the defense yet. Andy Vizcarra: From the defense? Andy Vizcarra: Good morning, Your Honor, were you waiting on us? Judge: Yes. Andy Vizcarra: Your Honor, we are both here, we're ready to proceed. [boxing bell ring] Katie Phang (narration): Round One, St. Mary's University versus the University of Illinois-Chicago. Judge: Everyone is here and we just received the message to get started. My name is... Or let's call the case in Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Thomas Santosuosso. My name is Judge Mark Altman. Anna Rose Velasco: Good morning, Your Honor. My name is Anna Rose [Velasco 00:09:13]. And today, I'm here with my co-counsel. Carol Fercoli: Good morning, Your Honor. I am Carol [Fercoli 00:09:17], and we are representing the prosecution. Judge Mark Alman: Okay, Defense? Andy Vizcarra: Good morning, Your Honor, my name is Andy Vizcarra, and I, along with my co-counsel Ms. Jasmin Olguin, represent the defendant, Mr. Thomas Santosuosso in today's proceedings, Katie Phang (narration): Defending any homicide suspect is the top of the game in criminal law. It'll take years for Andy and Jasmin to gain enough experience to take on this kind of legal work in the real world, but you got ta start somewhere. And why not in mock trial? Andy comes out swinging in the pretrial, making sure the rights of Tommy Santosuosso are not trampled by an overzealous prosecutor. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, Your Honor. We previously stipulated that no nicknames will be used to describe any of the parties today. So no nicknames like Tommy Two Guns Santosuosso or Crazy Tommy. Trial's like you're on fire. Everything around you is on fire. People are throwing fire at you, but our coaches teach us how to put those out. And lastly, our motion would be to exclude Mr. Santosuosso's criminal record in today's proceedings, as they are past acts or wrongs. And it should be excluded in today's proceedings. So like something's coming at you, you like move. That's coming at you, move. But it's all happening at the same time. Judge: I'm going to grant the motion in limine, if you can lay the proper predicate to get into that, and it's dealt with it but it's [inaudible], nor mention of his prior involvement [inaudible]. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, Your Honor. So you kind of feel like you're in the matrix and it's really, really cool, once you get in it. At first, when they throw you in there, you're like, "I'm going to die. Everything is lit up and I'm going to a burn here." And then you kind of get taught how to like put out the flames, which is cool. Some people were like, "Ah, that sounds amazing. Adrenaline rush." Other people were like, "I'd like to be the administrative branch of this team that like just watches you people." And I was like, "Got it. That's okay. It's not for everyone." Judge: All right, Prosecution, why don’t you go ahead and start your opening. Prosecution: It doesn’t matter if you’re in a game or the mafia, it doesn’t matter if you’re [fade out] Katie Phang (narration): During the six-minute opening by the prosecution, Jasmin Olguin is taking notes and trying to get her mind right. Jasmin Olguin: First thing in the morning, I always do a prayer in the morning. I recently just lost a friend, best friend actually. And it was a really hard year for me. And I just really relied on my faith this past year. It's been difficult since school. Like my friend, he actually asked me, he was like, "Do you ever like have doubts of your faith and stuff?" And I was like, "No, like I have no doubts because some of the things that have happened to me, like when you're at the lowest, you're like, 'there's no coming up from this. Absolutely not.' And God is just there." I've thought a lot about my faith recently too, because I don't want to just like be praying and saying the same things. I've been also trying to be more are like real every time I pray and really be thoughtful about what I'm saying, not just say the same "thank you for this, thank you for that” like I always do. Like I'm trying to be more like, "I'm thankful that I'm doing my dream job that I've always wanted." Like things like that. Jasmin Olguin: Yes, Your Honor may we proceed? Judge: You may. Jasmin Olguin: Some things are too good to be true. And today the Commonwealth has brought before you something that looks like a present, but after today's case, we will unwrap that box and remove the nice little bow on the top. And you will see that, that box is not a case. It's Nick Patrick, a liar, a drug dealer and a murderer. It's a Tuesday afternoon on Pietro Lane, and as you're walking down the road, the smell of spaghetti is lingering in the air. And as you enter the first restaurant on your right, Tommy greets you. And Tommy walks you over to the booth. He takes your order and he goes to the kitchen. He wants to make sure the chefs are following his mother's Sicilian recipes. Tommy, a few years ago opened his dream, authentic, Italian restaurant, Santosuosso. But Santosuossos, it's more than just a restaurant. You also hear from Mack Ledesma. Mr. Ledesma is an expert in organized crime. He knows the way the mafia thinks. He knows the way the mafia works and he will walk you through how a few insults, a few jokes, that's not a reason to kill somebody, but money, drugs. That's more than enough. That all will link to Mr. Patrick. Today, you will see that the forensics, the fingerprints, the DNA, and how it only links to one person, Mr. Patrick. The Commonwealth bears the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Santosuosso killed Mr. Caffiero, and they will not meet this burden today. We will ask that you return the only just verdict there is and find Mr. Santosuosso not guilty. Katie Phang (narration): And right on cue. The prosecution calls Nick Patrick, its star witness to the stand, for his direct examination. Witnesses on direct are nearly always played by students of the same team. This Nick Patrick is about to break the code of silence and rat out Tommy Santosuosso. Competitor Prosecution: What did you do next? Nick Patrick: Well, I took Billy with me outside to go have a smoke. We went outside, we walked up by the alley. We turned the corner and then there was Tommy right there in front of us. Competitor Prosecution: What did the defendant do then? Nick Patrick: He, he started beating the piss out of Billy, punching him, throwing him into the ground, kicking him. At one point he got on top of him and then grabbed his head, and was smashing it into the ground. Billy was bleeding real bad. Competitor Prosecution: And did you agree to help him get rid of the body? Nick Patrick: Well, yeah. What was I supposed to do? Elie Honig: Getting people to flip is really the name of the game when it comes to the mob. That is how you're going to make your big cases. I got pretty good at it. My name is Elie Honig. I spent 14 years as a prosecutor. Yes, they literally swear a blood oath when they become members of the mob. And they swear to Omerta, which is the Italian word for silence. That said, they will flip. If you charge them with murder, and they're looking at life behind bars, they'll flip. If they've had a falling out with the family, if they've been, here's a term, shelved, meaning sort of suspended without pay, they'll flip. If they have a beef going with somebody else, another term there, a dispute, they will flip. So the biggest and best cases I made were based on cooperation, on flipping people and getting them to break through that code of silence, that code of loyalty. So the mob presence looms large at these cases and it really can either help or hurt the prosecution or the defense. Judge: It's your witness, counsel. Andy Vizcarra: Mr. Patrick, how old are your kids? Nick Patrick: Excuse me? Andy Vizcarra: Your kids, they're still young. Nick Patrick: Yes. Andy Vizcarra: And they've grown up in this world of the mafia that you- Anna Rose Velasco: Objection, Your Honor. Relevance. Judge: Yeah. I'd love to hear its relevance, too. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, Your Honor. This line of questioning, if we may be heard outside the presence of the jury. Judge: Sure. Andy Vizcarra: I normally don't back down from an objection, which is half the game in trial. Like you cannot be rattled, be argumentative because you know your client's going to jail, do it. And let them worry about it. If they're going to object or not, like just punch it. This line of questioning is relevant as Mr. Patrick has a big deal to testify for the Commonwealth in today's case. Now, part of that deal is that he and his family get Witness Protection. They get relocated to a new place to start their life far away from the mafia. The relevance of this line of questioning is testing Mr. Patrick's motive to testify on the stand today and as such is testing his bias and his credibility, which always relevant. Judge: Is it true that Mr. Patrick is receiving Witness Protection for himself and his family? Anna Rose Velasco: He is, but I still wouldn't understand the age of his children having anything to do with this or anything along that lines, Andy Vizcarra: Your Honor, I can respond if you need me to. Judge: Sure. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, Your Honor. The point of the age of his children is just to show that Mr. Patrick still has young children and they've grown up in the world of the mafia. So part of this deal is that his young children no longer have to grow up in the world of the mafia. And it goes to his deal today to testify for the Commonwealth in exchange for that witness protection for him and his family. Again, Your Honor, it goes to his motive to testify on the stand, to his bias as a witness and his credibility, which is always relevant. Anna Rose Velasco: May I, respond Your Honor? Judge: It's a stretch, but I'm going to overrule the objection. Andy Vizcarra: The Commonwealth in their cooperation agreement with you offered you and your family Witness Protection. Nick Patrick: If I testify truthfully, correct. Andy Vizcarra: Now I want to talk to you about June 11th, 2019. Now you exited the bar with Billy Caffiero that night, right? Nick Patrick: Yes. Andy Vizcarra: And you went out into the alley? Nick Patrick: Yes, both me and Billy. Andy Vizcarra: And you loaded Mr. Caffiero's body into the trunk of your car? Nick Patrick: Correct. Andy Vizcarra: It was your car and not Mr. Santosuosso's, where Billy's bloody body was. Nick Patrick: Correct? It was wrapped, but yes. Andy Vizcarra: So part of your cooperation agreement with the Commonwealth is not that you were an accomplice to the murder of Billy Caffiero? Is that your testimony today? Nick Patrick: No, that's correct. Andy Vizcarra: And as an accomplice, you would agree with me that you were part of... [fade out] [in cathedral during Red Mass] Archbishop Gustavo García-Siller: It is not enough to be learned jurists and skilled practitioners. Your people need understanding and love. The wounds and the suffering is deep. What then does this demand of you? A return to the biblical vision of justice. Show us, show the people in society that there is some another way to serve. Your commitment to God's justice makes demands on you. It is not enough to be incorrupt, to go to your people with clean hands. Those hands must be outstretched. Katie Phang (narration): While the St. Mary's team is scoring points with the judges, up north the squad from the University of South Dakota is getting hyped. [University of South Dakota team arrives for competition] Laura Rose: Thanks for getting here. I'm glad you're present and awake. Bill Murray: I made breakfast. Laura Rose: Did you have your nap? Braedon Houdek: This morning? Laura Rose: I'm sure you did. Katie Phang (narration): Okay. These are law students, not football players. Laura Rose: ... Sure you did. Bill Murray: Well, I guess it's eight hours. Laura Rose: Okay. Do we need to make sure that you have a smoothie? Braedon Houdek: That'd be nice. Laura Rose: Here's the deal. As of 10:30, the moment you speak to another competitor, you can no longer talk to me until the round is concluded. Katie Phang (narration): For Coach Laura Rose, The Battle of the Experts is the first chance to finally get her team into the win column. Her school is ranked dead last among all of the tournament's competitors. Laura Rose: What I expect to happen this morning is for them to see a very intelligent, very well prepared and well coached Berkeley team. I think that the evidentiary arguments are going to be on point. If Baylie stays calm and remembers that she does actually know what she's talking about, we'll be fine. You've got this. Baylie, stand firm on your knowledge, right? Stand firm on your preparation. Don't worry about the individual components of it right now. You know how to flow with this. Stressing yourself out isn't going to do you any favors. You're a monster. Get in there and destroy people, guys. It's blood makes the grass grow, like I'm not kidding. It's time. You all have put in the work. You're ready for it. Everything else is just gravy, at this point. You guys are ready to go. Don't let the bells and whistles worry you. We're about to screw some people over big time. Baylie Moravec: It's just complete nerves and jitters for me, at least. I'm Baylie Moravec, and I am a third-year law student. Justin and I are arguing first today, and I think that we are so ready. We've got our case prepared, but these past couple of days it's been like just the most anticipation I think I've ever felt in law school. [boxing ring bell] Katie Phang (narration): Round One, South Dakota versus UC Berkeley. Judge: All right. Everybody's here. We just received the message to get started. Let's call the case of Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Thomas Santosuosso. All right. And defense counsel, would you like to make appearances for the record? Baylie Moravec: Yes. Good morning, Your Honor. My name is Baylie Moravec, along with my co-counsel. [Laura and Paul watching the tournament] Laura Rose: Justin, turn your microphone on. Justin Petereit: My name is Justin Petereit, co-counsel for the defense. Judge: All right. Thank you. We will now hear [crosstalk 00:22:44]- [Laura and Paul watching the tournament] Laura Rose: These children, I swear. Paul Ebsen: I don't know if you're more nervous or I'm more nervous. Katie Phang (narration): This is the first group of students to be trained in the "Laura Rose System." And they've been taught to be more assertive in pretrial motions, to not give away any advantage. Competitor: Okay. The Commonwealth has six to address. So first, Your Honor, we ask that all witnesses be constructively sworn in and sequestered, per rule 603. Judge: Is opposing counsel okay with that? Laura Rose: Baylie. Say no, come on, girl. Baylie Moravec: Your Honor, we were under the impression that all witnesses will be present for the testimony of other witnesses, especially for the experts. Laura Rose: There you go, good girl. Baylie Moravec: Your Honor. It stipulated to that, all witnesses will be present for other witnesses' testimony. So we ask that they all be present so therefore we disagree to sequestration. Judge: Okay. [crosstalk 00:23:34]- Laura Rose: They've already thrown them. They've already thrown them. Judge: Go ahead. Baylie Moravec: Burden of proof. Well, it's called proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And there are three things today that the Commonwealth must prove to you all beyond a reasonable doubt. First, they must prove to you that William Caffiero is dead. Katie Phang (narration): Over the next two hours, the South Dakota team does their level best to stick to the evidence and to avoid the histrionics usually associated with defense attorneys. Baylie Moravec: Second, they must prove to you that Thomas Santosuosso was the one who killed William Caffiero. And lastly, they must prove that Thomas Santosuosso acted with the intent to kill William Caffiero. As I just said, this is a case about opportunity, obvious misses and desired outcomes. And in order to show that today, the Commonwealth is going to present you with two witnesses. You're going to meet Sergeant Rauche. You see Sergeant Rauche is the over eager yet misguided investigator. And then you'll meet their star witness. [fade out] Judge: Cross examination? Laura Rose: Come on, Justin. Justin Petereit: Yes, Your Honor. Laura Rose: Do your s***. Do your s***. Justin Petereit: Ms. Patrick, you just testified on direct examination that Tommy Santosuosso was boosting trucks after Billy's incarceration. Witness: Yeah, yeah. That's true. I did. Justin Petereit: Ms. Patrick, can you...[fade out] I think that most people can have a voice in the courtroom, they've just got to find what that is. I would say, I'm pretty direct. Like, I don't get very flowery. Like I know Rose, she likes the fairytale style themes for something and that's not me. It would sound goofy if I was talking about Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. People would be like, "What's wrong with this guy?" This wasn't the first time you attested to this? Witness: No, I think I said the same thing in the preliminary hearing. That's what I knew. That sounds right. To be honest with you, it was a long time ago. Laura Rose: There you go, Justin. There you go. F***, yes. So he just destroyed her credibility completely and totally. And now he gets into his planned questioning. Justin Petereit: Then Billy went away. Laura Rose: That was as soon as it could have been. God, that was good. Witness: Yeah, he went to jail. Justin Petereit: And after Billy went away...[fade out] Katie Phang (narration): South Dakota is up against a team with a much different style; more outgoing, more theatrical. Competitor: At the heart of this murder was membership, money and motive. Laura Rose: Oh, you're on paper still. Competitor: First membership [crosstalk 00:26:08]- Laura Rose: See her looking down? She's got notes somewhere. Competitor: Billy Caffieri made a mockery of the defendant. Laura Rose: This staged s***, it's like... This drives me nuts. Competitor: A defense witness who you'll hear from today, they were kept close, given my [crosstalk 00:26:24]- Laura Rose: Excuse me? Competitor: ... all in the hopes of producing loyalty to the [Battalia's 00:26:30]. Laura Rose: This theater stuff that you see leaking in, it gets attention, but it's not litigating. It's not being a lawyer. Competitor: We just stood there for a few seconds. [fade out] Katie Phang: Then I just heard some criticism in your voice about the theatricality that seems to be, it sounds like, maybe more infused these days in terms of the mock trial competitions. I teach my students that trial is theater. I teach my students that jurors and even judges are looking for some level of having their attention captured through the theatrics of what that trial is, and what the facts are, et cetera. Am I wrong in that regard? Laura Rose: No, I don't think it's wrong to say that we steal from the art form of theater all the time as trial lawyers, you have to, in order to present, in order to when to use the softer tone of your voice, to really in an opening statement get the members of the jury to have that moment where all of a sudden their empathy is engaged and they're listening to you at a different level. I teach all of those tricks, too. But what I come back to at the end of the day is, juries want that theater, but juries are roving bands of 12-year-old girls. And what I mean by that is they will spot the fake person like that. And when they spot the fake person they're done with you, it doesn't matter how compelling you are. It doesn't matter how great of an orator you are. If they think that you're fake and full of it, they're not going to reward you at the end of the day because they're going to feel lied to. But it's not about making them an into an actor, it's about teaching them the tricks from acting and teaching them the tricks from theater, in order to do the presentation in the most authentic way that they can. Because at the end of the day, that's what juries end up rewarding. Katie Phang: But you and I both know anybody can be an advocate, but not everybody can be a trial lawyer. Are you thinking about how they're going to end up as lawyers and whether or not, they're going to be competitive trial lawyers and really be able to make a mark that way? Laura Rose: I am much more concerned with building competitive lawyers than I am with building competitive trial teamers. You get four competitions. If you're lucky, right? You get four times to compete at a mock trial competition in law school, maybe six, if you really push it at some schools, right? If you do three a year. You have the rest of your professional career that you're going to go out and be representing people. And so I'm much more concerned with making good attorneys. Katie Phang (narration): Back in San Antonio, the pace of the trial is heating up. Competitor: So let me get this straight. You heard the defendant say in three separate statements that he was going to kill Billy, correct? Mariela Encinas: Correct. Katie Phang (narration): The rookie, Mariela Encinas, is thrown into the fire as a witness and in another room, her teammates are listening, ready to bail her out. Competitor: So as we sit here today, you have absolutely no idea about anything Tommy did after he left the bar, correct? Mariela Encinas: No. Competitor: You agree it's possible, he never left at all? Mariela Encinas: I mean, it could be possible. Yes. I saw him leave the bar with his wife. So that's [crosstalk 00:29:45]- Competitor: And you didn't see him again that night? Mariela Encinas: No, I didn't. Competitor: Because the only way you would know if he had come back that night is if he had physically reentered the bamboo lounge, correct? Mariela Encinas: Yes. When I actually was closing up, I was able to see a little bit outside and that was the extent to what I could see outside. Competitor: So as we sit here today, you have absolutely no idea about anything Tommy did after he left the bar, correct? Mariela Encinas: No. Jasmin Olguin: Objection, Your Honor, asked and answered. Judge: Response? Competitor: We have no further questions, Your Honor. Katie Phang (narration): When the experts are called, the trial moves into open warfare with lawyers trying to crush the credibility of the other side's witness. Cole Davila: Hello. My name is Mack Ledesma. Katie Phang (narration): This Mack Ledesma is portrayed by St. Mary's’ Cole Davila. Competitor: Has been hired 18 times before to do this, correct? Cole Davila: Yes. Competitor: So 17 out of the 18 times that your business has been hired to consult, it's been hired by mobsters, correct? Cole Davila: It's been hired by alleged mobsters, and their defense counsel. Competitor: You did not speak with Nick Patrick? Cole Davila: No. Anna Rose Velasco: Now you believe Nick's statements to the police were truthful, correct? Andy Vizcarra: I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. So you believe [crosstalk 00:31:14]- Objection, Your Honor, if I may. Judge: Yeah. I've got to say that dog don't hunt. Objection is sustained. Katie Phang (narration): Sometimes all of this high-speed action results in a misfire. Competitor: So you [inaudible 00:31:25]- Jasmin Olguin: Objection, Your Honor. Judge: Sorry, did I hear an objection? Jasmin Olguin: Yes, Your Honor. Objection to the Commonwealth saying that my client got an attorney. Judge: What's your objection? Jasmin Olguin: My objection is withdrawn. Judge: Okay. So overruled. Katie Phang (narration): But the mark of a sharp attorney is a quick recovery. Jasmin Olguin: Let's talk about your investigation on Billy's murder. You collected evidence in this case. Witness: Yes we did. Jasmin Olguin: And one of the evidence that you collected was the interview of Mr. Patrick, the written report. Witness: Yes, we interviewed Mr. Patrick. Jasmin Olguin: But we don't have that audio of the interview today. Witness: No. Jasmin Olguin: We don't have it because your police department lost it. Witness: Yeah. I'm not sure what happened... Katie Phang (narration): As the trial heads to break, Andy Vizcarra, the team captain, checks in with her co-counsel. Jasmin Olguin: Dude, I forgot my last block. Andy Vizcarra: I know. I know. Jasmin Olguin: Was it that bad? Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. You don't go off screen. I mean, it's not that bad. The cross was good, but like be confident in yourself. Like you knew that, you walked over, stopped for like two minutes to ask one question. Jasmin Olguin: I know. I just couldn't remember my question. Andy Vizcarra: It's okay. If you don't remember, end it on that. It's okay. Like you clearly were going off screen. Jasmin Olguin: Did I fail? Andy Vizcarra: No, you didn't fail. It was a good cross. Jasmin Olguin: Are you sure? Andy Vizcarra: Yes. I'm sure. But be confident in yourself. Like, you know this material, Jasmin Olguin: I just like blanked. Andy Vizcarra: I know. Jasmin Olguin: I could not remember my [inaudible 00:33:09] law. Andy Vizcarra: Just take a breath and just take a moment. Like you're okay. Everything's okay. Like it was a really good cross. We got everything we needed. Jasmin Olguin: I know. Andy Vizcarra: It's fine. We're fine. Jasmin Olguin: Just promise I didn't let you down. Andy Vizcarra: No, you didn't let me down. You can't dwell on it for too long, because we have a job to do. And it's like, you can't sit there and feel sorry for yourself. Like just keep going. Like you have to keep going and you have to remember that confidence is half of the game. Jasmin Olguin: Was it? Andy Vizcarra: Jas, because you're not being... You don't believe in yourself. And like, I can't do it for you. Like sometimes you get down and you let it go into you. And then you're like, and you hesitate. And the next question is the right question. Like you know this stuff and I'm just like, "Like you got it." Jasmin Olguin: Yeah. I appreciate that. Andy Vizcarra: Like just hit it, use sarcasm. Like all of your questions are your questions, but like your tone of voice and how you're asking them are going to convey more than what you're actually saying. Jasmin Olguin: You're right. I have confidence issues, but that's okay. That's great. Andy Vizcarra: We all got confidence issues. Jasmin Olguin: [crosstalk 00:34:19]. Andy Vizcarra: We all got confidence issues. You ready for this redirect? Jasmin Olguin: Yeah. [inaudible 00:34:27] okay. Andy Vizcarra: Okay, put the phone down. You're not crying. You're fine. Lawyers don't cry. Let's go. Jasmin Olguin: They don't? Andy Vizcarra: I need you to hype up. Jasmin Olguin: No, we got this. Let's do this. Andy Vizcarra: Okay. We got everything. Jasmin Olguin: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:34:37]- Andy Vizcarra: This close is about to be on fire. Jasmin Olguin: This is the easy part. Andy Vizcarra: This is the easy part, so get out there and- Jasmin Olguin: You practiced? Andy Vizcarra: Yes, let's go. [competition continues] Judge: Okay. Is our teams back? If I can get all the attorneys to pop on the screen for just a second. Justin Petereit: Your Honor, counsel, members of the jury. Earlier today, my co-counsel, Baylie Moravec told us this case would come down to an opportunity, obvious misses and a desired outcome. Katie Phang (narration): The teams are ready for closing arguments and the pressure is on to impress the judges one last time. In South Dakota, that job falls to Justin. Justin Petereit: And now the Commonwealth comes before us today and asks you to give them their desired outcome, an outcome that they haven't quite earned. Then we also heard from the defense's expert, Mr. Mack Ledesma. Ledesma, who spent years in the FBI, has investigated many organized criminals pointed out a few things that didn't make sense. The few things that didn't make sense, like the circumstances and suspects that were never investigated. Let's talk about some of those circumstances. The first one being...[mouse and computer key clicks] Laura Rose: He can't get the technology to work. Justin Petereit: The timing of the death. Laura Rose: There we go. There we go, Justin. There's my boy. Justin Petereit: ... was extremely close to the timing of the release from prison. Laura Rose: There's my guy. Justin Petereit: For potential violations of the mafia that could have led to a sanctioned killing. Laura Rose: Nice cover. Justin Petereit: A sanctioned killing is when the blessing comes down...[fade out] Katie Phang (narration): In San Antonio, it's Andy's turn to close out the case. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, Your Honor, may we proceed? Judge: You may. Andy Vizcarra: Some things are too good to be true. But the Commonwealth thinks they have their slam dunk conviction, why does anything else matter? It matters because they have the wrong guy. It matters because the real killer is sitting in the wrong chair. It matters because in the United States of America, no one is above the law and no one is beneath it either. It means that no matter who you are, president, priest, prostitute, or even former mafia member, the law protects, you until the Commonwealth, until the state can prove otherwise. Mr. Patrick thinks that because he delivered this perfect present of a case to you today, no one will look too hard at him. Pay attention to the red flashing lights pulsing in front of you. There is more evidence in this case that Nick Patrick- Judge: Defense counsel, you've run out of time. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, Your Honor. Judge: Any rebuttal to this case? Competitor: Yes, Your Honor. Brief rebuttal. Members of the jury, the defense...[fade out] [Jasmin and Andy later in room together] Andy Vizcarra: I could have cut it. I could have cut it. Jasmin Olguin: I'm sorry. Andy Vizcarra: That was supposed to be a perfect close. Jasmin Olguin: I should just put it... Judge: I believe my ballot has been perfect for everything submitted. Jasmin Olguin: That was really good though. Andy Vizcarra: It wasn't perfect. Katie Phang (narration): After the end of the round, the presiding judge and the jurors tally up their points. They mark a range of scores for the quality of the openings and the closings, as well as the effectiveness of the direct and cross examinations. Bailiff: Judges could just drop an acknowledgement in the chat or give me a shout. Let me know when their ballot has been submitted. I can confirm with the back office that it has been received. Paul Ebsen: How do you feel? Laura Rose: I feel good. There are parts of it that could have been smoother. There are parts of it where they could have argued a little bit more, but they used their time judiciously. They pointed out the things that they needed to point out. I would've liked Justin to point out the impeachments that we got in the close a little bit more, but I think he attacked the credibility of the witnesses just fine. In particular, since he had that moment. Judge: We all had to do our comments, let's just prepare. Judges, let's just go in alphabetical order. Judge 2: As for the defense, I would say that the cadence of the closing made it difficult to follow what was, and what was not important within your arguments. Aside from that, like I said before, good job. Laura Rose: There was a tone of voice critique. Justin's going to be so mad. Judge 3: Both teams did well, but I would caution the prosecution to be less theatrical. And for the defense, I would say pick your energy up a little bit more, especially if you get stuck. At a point, it seemed like at some points, both sides may have been doing some reading, which is okay in my view, because you don't have to memorize every single fact of your case in order to be effective. [USD team gathers after tournament] Laura Rose: Yes, sir. You okay? Justin Petereit: I'm fine. I just lost all my s***. I couldn't find myself. Like with my PowerPoint. Laura Rose: Yeah. Justin Petereit: So I was trying to find it and just lost it. Laura Rose: That's okay. Justin Petereit: That's kind of what happened there in that f***ing terrible close. Laura Rose: But it wasn't a terrible close. It wasn't a terrible close. Justin, you did exactly what you needed to do. You walked me through the elements. You walked them through where they didn't have proof. You did exactly what I would've wanted you to do. Justin Petereit: I know, it's so- Laura Rose: You nailed it. Justin Petereit: It's like that, that should have been ten times better than it was, but... Laura Rose: Yeah, but you were going up against the world's most boring, over theatrical, like non-existent real-world team ever. Justin Petereit: That's true. Laura Rose: Like that got me. Justin Petereit: [inaudible 00:40:16]. Laura Rose: You did exactly what nobody wanted you to do. Stop beating yourself up and stop Monday morning quarterbacking it, you handled that round expertly, Justin, you really did. But you got to shake it off. Shake off the shake off the bad vibes, because I'm telling you, you handled that. The fact that, that closer was as scripted as he was and was reading as much as he was... I'm not meaning this as any kind of insult to Berkeley, because that's a way that they can choose to coach. But this stuff drives me nuts. I can't stand pre-planned gestures where it's been clear that they've been told what mark to hit with it. And they were clearly reading both their opening and their closing. And their opening was long as hell. It was like 10 minutes long. It was ridiculous. Your theory is way better on the state case. That's the stuff that we discarded about a month ago, now at this point was what they went with. You guys are better prepared. You just have to stay focused. Katie Phang (narration): In San Antonio. The mood is tense as they wait for comments. Andy Vizcarra: This Wi-Fi better start working before I throw a tantrum. Judge: Hey guys, I'm going to keep my comments as short as possible. No matter how much I love the sound of my own voice because I know you all are probably as hungry as I am. But in all seriousness guys, look, here's the deal. If I were to have done all the motions in limine what you all did to push this way today, I would've been shouted out of the courtroom. If you were going to file, request a motion in limine, you better make sure it matters. You better make sure it's not a complete waste of everyone's time. And if you violate your own motion, you're through. You have to be able to adjust. And I mean, to be honest, the running out of time part is actually a far less of a concern for me than that. Judge 2: I'm going to sort of piggyback on that comment. To me, this felt pretty sloppy for a trial at this level, going over time, not listening to the rulings on motions and objections, not having a backup plan if you lose on a particular line of questioning and just sort of like dropping it. And I just feel like at this level, you got to look at the score sheet and you got to see what we're evaluating you on. This is an overall performance kind of competition, overall performance kind of score sheet. There's no part on the score sheet for me to give you bonus points for making motions in limine and objections that didn't advance your case in the end. Jasmin Olguin: They thought we were sloppy. Andy Vizcarra: How were we sloppy? Jasmin Olguin: I don't know. I thought you did good. Maybe it was me on my cross. Okay. I'm really sorry about the running out of time. Andy Vizcarra: No, it's fine. Jasmin Olguin: No, it's not fine. I let you down, I'm sorry. Andy Vizcarra: Ugh. [sigh] Katie Phang (narration): After one long day of competition, the St. Mary's team, despite the harsh comments from the judges beat the University of Illinois at Chicago. They lost their next trial to Chicago-Kent. The team piles into Andy's car, trying to clear their heads. Andy Vizcarra: (singing) Kristin Cabrera: And why do you have a quinceañera dress in your back? Andy Vizcarra: Because my sister had her quinceañera recently and I've been trying to get this to the dry cleaners, but I've been forgetting because I'm running around like a crazy person, Kristin. Mariela Encinas: I wonder what judge it was that complained. If it was like our main judge. Jasmin Olguin: No, the quote. Cole Davila: The judge. Andy Vizcarra: Okay. I don't talk about that anymore. I'm done. [crosstalk 00:43:48], I'm going to be pissed if this one guy carried his role, like is that a joke? Like? Yeah, he was good. He was also reading. Everyone needs to calm down. [sigh] Jasmin Olguin: It's heartbreaking. We worked so hard for this, and- Mariela Encinas: Well, we still got two rounds. Andy Vizcarra: I mean, we got two rounds, right? Mariela Encinas: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:44:08]. Andy Vizcarra: Like today's rounds were like, they're okay. Definitely could do better tomorrow. Like, and your opening was so good, like I'm just like, I don't know. We do need to hit it harder. I just don't know how else to... Jasmin Olguin: I'm going to cut my cross with [Rauche 00:44:22]. I'm only going to, I'm going to make it tight, like that guy today. Mariela Encinas: Maybe you just need to be like, was there fingerprints? No? All right, cool. Next. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. Mariela Encinas: On the night, was there anything [crosstalk 00:44:33]- Andy Vizcarra: Keep going, just keep going. Jasmin Olguin: Just do those blocks. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. Mariela Encinas: You should just be like- Jasmin Olguin: I'm going to just cut out the investigation block, the beginning. Mariela Encinas: The rest of the blocks are tight. Andy Vizcarra: Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Mariela Encinas: You're right. We know what we need to do. It's going to be good. Andy Vizcarra: I hope my kids never see my trials. Mariela Encinas: Why? Andy Vizcarra: Because they'd be like, "What are you doing?" Mariela Encinas: Taking your bag in? Andy Vizcarra: Yes, please. Katie Phang (narration): South Dakota is also one and one. They lost to UC Berkeley, but Coach Rose doesn't tell her team it scores during the tournament. We spilled the beans to Baylie after the competition. Baylie Moravec: I haven't even seen the scorecards. So did they beat us in both of those rounds? Katie Phang: Sorry, but yeah, they did. Baylie Moravec: You're kidding. Oh, that is such a bummer and kind of funny that they won. I remember the acting that came from it. It just seemed fake. And then there was a lot of smiling, which I didn't understand. Because it was a murder trial. I remember being shocked during it and just being like, "What are we going up against right now?" I think they were polished. I'll give them that. Like they knew their facts. They knew the fact pattern. It was polished. You could tell they prepared, but they didn't prepare in the way that South Dakota had prepared. So it shocks me that they won. Katie Phang (narration): But then they rallied and beat the highly ranked University of South Carolina team. [Round 3 of competition] Braedon Houdek: You didn't include a lot of the evidence that corroborates Nick Patrick's story. Witness: Right. Braedon Houdek: Because you didn't include the defendant sell phone record. Witness: No, I did not. Braedon Houdek: You didn't include anything about the autopsy report? Witness: No, I didn't. [USD team gathers after Round 3] Laura Rose: Did that feel better? Did everybody feel a little better now? Right? Baylie Moravec: That was so good. Laura Rose: Here's the difference. You feel better this afternoon because you chased down the tracks when they left them, chased down trackable. You guys were nervous about that because of time this morning, don't worry about that tomorrow. You know your arguments, you know your positions, you know where you're going to go. You all handled that and you ate the puppies without embarrassing them so badly that they felt like they were shamed. That closing, sir. Braedon Houdek: It was good. Laura Rose: Hot damn, hot damn. Braedon, you did that first part of the close in nine minutes. Just so you know you know. You all are great. I'm super-duper proud of today. You should be super-duper proud of today. You sir, that witness, "Would it refresh your recollection if I pointed you right to it." And then she took forever and you're like, "I'll do it for you." I was like, "Bill. Yes. Like all day long, twice on Sunday." Everybody had moments of real advocacy brilliance today. Baylie Moravec: So I called my parents between rounds. So right after I argued. They've gotten very invested in this. They obviously know about the case. So they know that it was a murder trial. And then I made the joke to Rose yesterday. I was like, "Well, I want to send my parents a link, but I don't think they know how to change their name on Zoom." So I'm going to have to teach them how to do that. Bill Murray: So my wife looks at it as a student organization and she does not understand why there's a podcast following us for our student organization. She doesn't understand why there's a camera set up for a student organization. She doesn't understand why we have to compete in competitions for a student organization. She just compares it to like the nursing club in undergrad. She's like, I was in whatever club in undergrad, and we never had to do any of that. Why are you doing all this? This takes up so much time. You don't need to be doing that. Laura Rose: Breathe, go home rest. We're going to try our case tomorrow. We're going to handle our shit. We're going to do the same thing all over again. Okay? Breathe in, go forth. Do good things. Any questions that you need to ask me? Justin Petereit: Do we know who we got tomorrow? Laura Rose: I don't know yet. It'll be a while before they announce. And as soon as I have the pairing, you'll have the pairing. [competition resumes] Bill Murray: He looks to the trunk, they count one, two, three. The trunk pops open and the spotlight of the trunk shines on the victim of this case, Mr. William Caffiero, sprawled out, bruised, swollen, limp, and using what little life he has left to plead for help. Katie Phang (narration): Day two was a letdown for South Dakota. They lost a battle against Cumberland. Again, news to Baylie. Baylie Moravec: After the round, Justin and I went into one of the study rooms at school and he goes, "God, that was brutal." And I was like, "Bill and Braedon just slammed them." And it was impeaching. It was correcting them on the record. It was all of this stuff and yeah. Wow. That's all I have to say. Katie Phang (narration): And then exhaustion creeped in. And they lost to top ranked Baylor. Judge: Good luck in next rounds, everybody. Good luck everybody. Baylie Moravec: You know, it was just tears because you put in so much work, you have your school's name behind you, representing them. So it was almost worse than a sport's loss. And it was worse because there were definitely rounds that we should not have lost that we did lose, and that doesn't necessarily happen in sports. So that was very, very, very tough. And to just kind of feel like we didn't do enough or like we've disappointed USD and I know that, that is not the case. There's just stuff you can't control, but you do take it personally. And I definitely did. Jasmin Olguin: Well. We're going to have to know who we go against. Cause we're going to have to email them. Andy Vizcarra: Why are you still harping on that? Jasmin wants to know who we're going to go against. And I'm like I'd just rather not know because it doesn't matter. Cole Davila: I don't think [crosstalk 00:50:32]. Jasmin Olguin: I just want to know if we're going prosecution or defense first. Andy Vizcarra: Oh, well yeah. I want to know that too, but Jasmin's out here like trying to scout people. Jasmin Olguin: Well, I don't know anything except UCLA and Baylor, but still. Katie Phang (narration): At St. Mary's the unforced errors continue for Jason Goss' team. He and his wife Maritza can only watch and shake their heads. [Jason and Maritza watching competition via Zoom] Jason Goss: Isn't it weird? So, Andy got a 10, a nine and a six on her closing. It's every... But every round, she's- Maritza Stewart: A 10, a nine and a six? Jason Goss: Every round she's had somebody give her a six. Maritza Stewart: What did Jasmin get on her opening? Jason Goss: She got an eight, a five and a nine. And the five- Maritza Stewart: So weird. Jason Goss: ... came from the same person who gave Andy a six. So that, is a judge that just did not- Maritza Stewart: Like us. Jason Goss: ... from the beginning. From the beginning. Katie Phang (narration): Head coach, AJ Bellido de Luna, has been following the tournament all weekend. [AJ calls Jason Goss] AJ Bellido de Luna: So what do you think is going on? Jason Goss: I don't know. I don't know. I think that they were rattled from the beginning. AJ Bellido de Luna: So you think they're rattled by the judge? Jason Goss: Probably. I mean, the judge won't even listen to them now, honestly. She just doesn’t trust us. AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah. So she- Jason Goss: That's their bad. AJ Bellido de Luna: And that's going to affect the jury. Jason Goss: That's right. AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah. And I just don't understand that though, because we don't practice that way. So why are they... Why is this happening now? Jason Goss: I don't know. Katie Phang: St. Mary's is trounced by Temple University and completely run out of gas against Pace University in New York. The St. Mary's team piles into a car and heads to FRIDA, a restaurant owned by Andy's parents. Andy Vizcarra: Cole, you might want to sit on either side, so that Coach Stewart and Coach Goss can sit in here, and then AJ can have a seat if he wants to come. Do you want to start serving drinks? Jasmin Olguin: Oh, no, yes. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah. Can I get a tamarind margarita? Mariela Encinas: That actually sounds really good. Jasmin Olguin: What are you getting? What are you getting? Mariela Encinas: Margarita tamarindo. Andy Vizcarra: I think overall I'm proud of us. I think if we don't break because substantially, substantively, we were there, but also like we gave it our all and we have to learn from our procedural mistakes next time. And it's okay. This is our... This is the very first one. Mariela Encinas: I think I lucked out. I was really stressing playing Nick Patrick, just this whole weekend. And luckily in both teams where I played Nick Patrick. They didn't go hard, nearly as hard as I feel like we went after Patrick. Andy Vizcarra: We crossed. Mariela Encinas: And so I feel like they really prepared me for what was to come. So yeah, I mean, that was my take from today. I can breathe a little easier for now. Cole Davila: On the one hand, happy that we made it through another day. Also very tired, I want to recover, but you know, we did so much work for two months, very, very late nights. I want to advance, even though it's going to be exhausting the next day. So we could say, you know, it was well worth it, but at the same time, even if we don't break, it was a great experience for my first outing for law school. Katie Phang (narration): AJ stops by just in time to hear the announcement about which teams will move on. It's called making the break. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hi. How are you? Server: Good evening, how are you doing? AJ Bellido de Luna: I'm well, how are you? Server: I'm great. Thank you, so much. AJ Bellido de Luna: Can I get an old fashioned, please? That'd be great. Thank you. Philip Pasquarello [via Zoom]: Everyone. Announcer: Recording in progress. Philip Pasquarello: Welcome everyone to the 2021 Battle of the Experts awards ceremony. So I'm really pleased to announce that our first presiding judge, outstanding presiding judge award goes to Jason Goss. Team: Yay! [applause] AJ Bellido de Luna: It's a nice picture of you, too. Andy Vizcarra: Ooh, look, he drew a picture. AJ Bellido de Luna: Look at that picture. How old are you now? Philip Pasquarello: I'm going to start with our number one seed and make my way down to number four seed. The fourth team that's advancing to the semi finals. I'll start with our one seed. This team was the only team to finish [crosstalk 00:55:00]- Jason Goss: Four and 12. Philip Pasquarello: ... rounds undefeated 12. Jason Goss: Four and 12. That’s UCLA. Philip Pasquarello: [crosstalk 00:55:04], they won 11 of their 12 ballots. So they were undisputed number one, after our preliminary [inaudible 00:55:12], the only undefeated team, our defending champion, UCLA. The next semifinal team or second seed, returning to the playoffs for the second straight year- Andy Vizcarra: Temple? Philip Pasquarello: [inaudible 00:55:21]. Congratulations. Andy Vizcarra: Oh, to the playoffs. Philip Pasquarello: And our last [crosstalk 00:55:26] who made it into playoffs this year, by the skin of her teeth with a point differential plus 14 and three wins, eight ballots. The bears from Baylor. Congratulations, Baylor. AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. All right. It's disappointing. I know you all work hard. You all worked real hard. You all work great. But here's the deal, we're proud of you. We see the work that you put in. And these things happen. Jason Goss: It's just logistics. Maritza Stewart: So we keep going. You pick up your chin and we fight another day. We're proud of you. AJ Bellido de Luna: This feeling that you all have. I mean, you can see it, right? You're wearing it. You're wearing your feeling on your sleeves, right? You could see it. This is something that you can use a strength. You were not beaten this weekend. It was unforced errors. So the question is, how do you take this feeling and turn it into strength? How do you take this feeling and say, "No, we're not going to do that again. We're better than that. Our coaches believe in us. We are better than that. How can we do this differently, next time?" We believe in you and you're going to represent us in Best in Texas, the four of you. Mariela, you are going to be an advocate. So all four of you, you're going to be a team. You're going to be an advocate and you're going to show what we already know. Mrs. Rosa Vizcarra: It's okay. Andy Vizcarra: Fine. Kristen Cabrera: Hi, how are you doing? Mrs. Rosa Vizcarra: I'm good. How are you all doing? Andy Vizcarra: Good. Kristen Cabrera: Nice to see you again. Andy Vizcarra: I just told them that we didn't break into the semis, so. Mrs. Rosa Vizcarra: It's okay. It's okay. Katie Phang (narration): This is Andy's mom and dad. Mrs. Rosa Vizcarra: The only thing else in life. Another step. Kristen Cabrera: But you got to see her. You got to see it . How was that? Mrs. Rosa Vizcarra: Oh yeah. It's very impressive what they do, honest. But yeah, it's very impressive to know. And it's very impressive what she can do. It's awesome. The whole experience is a price. Mr. Elizandro Vizcarra: [Spanish 00:57:40]. Andy Vizcarra: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of disappointing in the sense that I did have a lot to prove. Yeah, we'll get them next time, but hopefully I can eat now. So I'm going to go order some food. Mrs. Rosa Vizcarra: Go eat. [Red Mass in cathedral continues] Archbishop Gustavo García-Siller: Our people are crying for quality of love in law, in the exercise of your powerful profession. [music, classical Spanish guitar] Katie Phang (narration): The trial season, real and mock, is underway. Prosecutors, defense attorneys and judges from around the country are struggling with the weighty issues surrounding the administration of justice. The Red Mass dates back to the Magna Carta and the advent of jury trials. Our system is not perfect, but hopefully these young attorneys can make a bit of difference. Archbishop Gustavo García-Siller: Inspire them with your integrity, give them what any man or woman can claim from the law, but give them even more. More, for your salvation and theirs, give them yourselves. Act toward them as God has act toward you. Who knows, you just might transform Texas into the kingdom of God. The father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Church attendees: Amen. Glorifying the Lord by your lives. Archbishop Gustavo García-Siller: Thanks be to God. Adria Kimbrough: I always remind them, “This is what it’s doing to be, guys. This is it. You, at least, have the community of being with people who have similar experiences. You will be the only one.” Every place that I have ever practiced, have been the only one. Ole Miss competition announcer: On the Defense side, DeAndre Bell. Also with 19 ranks on the Prosecution side, from Team Insidious, Dillard University, Amaya Ronczyk. And finally we had a perfect scoring attorney on the Defense side, Dillard B, Lajeanne Shelton. [cheers, screams of joy, applause] Katie Phang (narration): That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of Sound Argument and iHeartRadio. Created, produced, written and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Sound design, editing and mixing by Lisa Gray, Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine This episode had additional field production by Kristen Cabrera, Alfredo de la Garza, Paul Ebsen and Malia Lukomski. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Previous Next

< Back BAYLIE MORAVEC Student, University of South Dakota "It's fun watching a case come together. And then it's fun listening to what someone else has done and then flipping it on them. It sounds a little mean, but it's fun to just tear something apart." Previous Next

< Back DEANDRE BELL Student, Dillard University "I started telling my family that I wanted to run for President, and Barack Obama has been a big influence for me in terms of doing that. The man did it all. He was a lawyer. Naturally, it's some shoes that I'd like to fill." Previous Next

< Back JASMIN OLGUIN Student, St. Mary's University "It means a lot to show that I can do well, and I can do as well as my other peers, you know, being a Hispanic woman." Previous Next

< Back Episode 13 Bonus: Home for the Holidays in the Valley Air date: September 22, 2022 In this bonus episode, Genesis Salinas, 2L, from St. Mary’s in San Antonio, Texas, takes us to her family’s home in the Rio Grande Valley. The Valley is at the southernmost point of Texas, at the meeting point of Mexico and the U.S., making it rich in history and culture. Genesis and her family share their holiday memories and traditions with cookies, arroz con leche, and a children’s Christmas carol. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: St. Mary's University Law School Texas Young Lawyers Association National Trial League Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . Previous Next