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< Back Episode 11 11. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Air date: August 9, 2022 Mock trial is supposed to prepare you for a real trial. Andy and Jasmin are about to see if that’s true. They are going to face off in Bexar County Court for an actual case in front of a judge and jury. Special guests and law students from the various schools join in to share some of their favorite law tips and career advice. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: St. Mary's University Law School Texas Young Lawyers Association National Trial League Stay Tuned with Preet Elie Honig Lara Bazelon Tony Serra Jason Goss Maritza Stewart Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT Katie Phang, host: Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. [walking into the Bexar County Courthouse] Andy Vizcarra: This is the courthouse. So I've been in some of these before, so... Hi. So 11 is one of my courts. I'm a misdemeanor intern clerk for all of the courts. It's scary. You're walking into this big machine. This is the machine, this is our justice machine and it's really intimidating, you don't know anyone, you don't know what your role's going to be. You don't know how they're going to use you. You just don't know anything or anyone. Are the ADAs intimidating? Are they nice? Will they like you? Will they give you work? You don't know anything. The first day was all about figuring out all of that stuff as well as, "Can I leave for lunch?" "Where's the bathroom?" Yeah, it was really, really intimidating. So I have all of the misdemeanor courts. It's 14, 15 of them, so if one of the ADAs is like, "Oh, we're going to trial. On this day do you want to come?” I'll go to trial and 14 for all day and pick a jury with them or whatever. So it's pretty cool. [sound of elevator bell, Andy walks into elevator] Andy Vizcarra: I think it's this way... Court Bailiff: All rise for the jury. Court Judge: Case 22758 The State of Texas versus...Today is March the 30th. Yesterday, we had selected the jury, sworn them in and the defendant, whether rain...At this time, I'd like you to say not duty, make opening...Thank you. Katie Phang, host: Less than a month, after their run to the national championship stalled at the one yard line, ex-teammates Andy Vizcarra and Jasmin Olguin are about to face off in an actual criminal trial at the Bexar County Courthouse in San Antonio. It's a misdemeanor case. Andy will be second chairing for the DA's office, and Jasmine will be in a similar role with her defense firm and to up the stakes, the defense team's lead attorney is none other than Jason Goss, their former coach from the St Mary's Trial Team. Jason Goss: I'm just really proud, it's kind of going against a child or something where you're proud of them, but you're also trying to beat him. And I do want to beat them because I think it's justice for my client. Andy Viczarra: It's so cool. I want to be just like him. It's crazy. It's so cool to see him. On the other hand, I didn't know we were going to be going directly head to head, but you know, somewhat...I was nervous. I couldn't eat breakfast. I had to drink tea. I wasn't, I didn't crack a Celsius until later on in the day when I had calmed down and it's like, you stand in delivery, you don't care who's on the other side. Jasmin Olguin: I'm feeling excited, for sure. Interested to see how the rest of this case plays out. But as of now, I feel like my heart is kind of in a little fire in my heart because of this, because everything we've been hearing and seeing it's so upsetting that we're here trying this case. Katie Phang, host: And in an even more bizarre twist, Jason's wife and fellow trial team coach Maritza Stewart, she's going to supervise Andy during the trial. Maritza Stewart: It's a pretty amazing thing to do, because it's funny, it's what we've been, we hope to see. And we've always said that's one of our things that we're proud of, that any of our students can go. If they worked with us and committed to the program, they learned the ideals that AJ and coach Goss and I try and teach. Katie Phang, host: So it's student versus student, student versus teacher, husband versus wife. What more could you possibly want? Katie Phang, host: This is episode 11 of Class Action. Tony Serra: First thing I would inquire is why do you want to become a lawyer? Katie Phang, host: Yes. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Hailey Nickels: The idea that I, at 23 years old can walk into a courtroom next year and run it front to back better than some of these people that have been practicing for 10, 15, 20 years. I'm like, that's insane to me. Dyla Ramstad-Skoyles: I like the puzzle. You are given a set of facts and you have to make those facts work with what your client wants. And it doesn't matter if your client is the State. It doesn't matter if your client is an actual living human being in front of you. They have something that they want. And your job, as an attorney, is to make sure whatever given situation can work out for them. Brooke Baumgardner: You do become a different version of yourself, because no one would want that in their every day. I wouldn't have any friends. I've always kind of likened it to my mom was an absolute maniac about our table manners when we were growing up. But she wanted to make sure that when I went to that nice dinner, I exuded confidence because I knew that I could hang with the big kids, kind of thing. It's the same way. I know what I'm doing just as much as I know I'm picking up the right fork for the right meal, kind of thing. Katie Phang, host: That's future lawyers, Hailey Nickels, Dyla Ramstad-Skoyles and Brooke Baumgardner. Judge: On the record and...622758... Katie Phang, host: A summary of this case. In 2019, the San Antonio police were called to a scene at 4:25 AM on the west side of town, not far from the St Mary's campus. The complaint was coded as "A disturbance neighbor." Gun involved. For privacy, we're going to remove the names of the persons in this case. [police bodycam footage] Officer Garcia: Is he the one y'all is calling on? Male 1: Yes, ma'am. Male 2: Pulled the gun on him. Officer Garcia: All right. Does he have it on him? Male 1: No. [inaudible 00:06:49]. Officer Garcia: You got a gun on you, buddy? Speaker 13: No. Officer Garcia: No? [inaudible 00:06:55]. Katie Phang, host: When Officer Garcia arrived on the scene, she found a crowd gathered around a victim who was lying on the ground half in some bushes and half on the sidewalk. Officer Garcia: Okay. Did you just have a seizure? Is that's what's going on or...? Male 1: No. Katie Phang, host: The victim, we'll call him Boris, was staring into space and had bumps and contusions on his face. Male 1: It's all broken. Officer Garcia: Okay. Yeah. You may want to spit your tooth out, that way you don't choke on it. And you didn't see any of this, right, sir? Male 2: I'm sorry? Officer Garcia: You didn't see any of this? Male 2: No, I saw nothing. Officer Garcia: All right, sir. Well, I'm sorry... Katie Phang, host: This is Boris's husband. He's also an eyewitness. Well, sort of... Officer Garcia: But you didn't see anything? Male 2: I saw them beating him up. Officer Garcia: Okay. You saw them beating... Who's them? So I could be... Male 2: The three guys. Officer Garcia: All three of them? Male 2: Well, I saw all three of them over him. I mean, because it all happened so fast that I was freaking out over the... Officer Garcia: Okay. All right. So have a good night. Katie Phang, host: Boris came around and told Officer Garcia that his neighbor, a man we'll call Carlos, was sitting in his car with a bunch of guys playing his stereo at high volume at four o'clock in the morning. Male 1: There were sitting in the car, they turn it up the music at loud completely to make sure that pissed off the whole neighborhood, they're doing it every day. Officer Garcia: I understand why you're upset... Katie Phang, host: Boris then told Officer Garcia that he approached the car and knocked on the window. And the next thing you know... Officer Garcia: What happened to your face? Male 2: He just punch. He begin punching me. I was laying low and he was continuously punching me, trying to kill me- Officer Garcia: Which one? Do you know which one it was? Male 2: The heavy. Officer Garcia: You want to come talk to me real quick? Officer Garcia: Black shirt? The third? Katie Phang, host: This is Carlos's nephew, who was in the front passenger seat. Officer Garcia: So what's going on? What happened? Male 3: All of a sudden he asked this, it's like, hey, I didn't think the music was too loud at all, to be honest. We had it fairly low, because we were listening to a... Officer Garcia: At one point he comes up to the truck... Male 3: Comes up and knocks and then that's when he pulled the gun. He's like, "You need to turn it down." Officer Garcia: What color was the gun? Male 3: It was a crome-ish kind of gun, I guess. He pulled it out from the side. He's like, "You need to turn the music down now." Blah, blah, blah. Officer Garcia: Okay, but you didn't really explain how he ended up on the ground and everything. So when did that happen? And how? Male 3: We asked him nicely to leave them, pushed him not too hard, though. Just enough to get him off our property. Started to push him back. Officer Garcia: By any chance did you hit him or anything like that? Male 3: Nope. Officer Garcia: All right. What about uncle, right? What about your uncle? Did uncle hit him or anything like that? Male 3: I almost touched him. Officer Garcia: All right. Male 3: It was self-defense, but I'm not going to deny that. Male 3: Yes sir. Yes sir. No, no. I'm not going to lie to you guys. I mean, I did that. I didn't assault that man. Male 2: I don't want any trouble, madame. Officer Garcia: Yeah. Unfortunately tonight buddy, is going to have to go down like this, but what matters most is what happens after this and hopefully you're never in handcuffs ever again. All right? Male 2: But I didn't assault him. You know? How do I prove I didn't? Officer (male): Sir, he's spiting teeth out of his mouth. Male 2: But there's no... Look at my hands. If he was spiting teeth out of his mouth, my hands would be cut. There's no cuts on my hands. I'm just saying...I don't want no problem. Officer Garcia: Yeah, we don't either, buddy. We're just trying to do our job and I know you're just trying to have a good time on a Friday. Male 2: I understand. Officer Garcia: All right. Just sit tight, all right? I'll turn on the AC for you. I'm sorry... Katie Phang, host: Carlos was ultimately charged with assault with bodily injury. It should be pointed out here that normally a misdemeanor case like this would almost never make it to trial, but this is America. And if you've been listening to this podcast all along, you know, we are all about having the constitutional right to a fair hearing. Katie Phang, host: Facing potential jail time, Carlos bonded out and decided to seek defense counsel. And here he turned to Jason Goss and Jasmin Olguin to defend him at trial. But this time against her former teammate. Jasmin Olguin: I know her responses. I know the way she thinks, she knows the way I think, is like we both have the same little senses. Like if we hear certain questions or responses, we're trained by the same coach, both of our senses start tingling or like, "Okay, this is it, this is." And like with objections, I know what she's going to object to and what she's feeling and stuff like that. So maybe not an advantage, but I know her and I think our coach knows her too. Preet Bharara: The dynamic between counsel is interesting. Katie Phang, host: Now, for some perspective on this whole becoming a lawyer thing, here's Preet Bharara. Preet Bharara: Counterintuitively, my experience has been, that prosecutors and defense lawyers are much more cordial and friendly. Some become quite good friends, and part of the reason is there's a lot at stake in a criminal case and the most professional defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're not taking this personally, "It's not personal, it's business." To quote from The Godfather . Sometimes someone's a jerk, they're jerks in every profession, and they're jerks at trial sometimes. And then you have to be careful not to let your temper get the better of you. And you treat everyone with respect in the courtroom and certainly in front of the jury, because they don't know what's gone on behind the scenes. Another peculiar question arises for defense lawyers in criminal cases who may have a long relationship with the prosecutors. They may have been colleagues. People become prosecutors, defense lawyers, they go back and forth. Katie Phang, host: That's the case with Jason Goss. He was an assistant DA in this very courthouse for 10 years before switching sides. So he's on very familiar ground here. Back to the case at hand, a six-member jury is empaneled and Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key is enrobed. Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key: I think if everyone's first trial could be this difficult and this convoluted and they could still get through it, everything else after that's going to seem fairly easy. So it's a great introduction into how tough things can be. Katie Phang, host: And here we are at trial, which begs the question... Ashley Hymel: Well, let's start with, why do we need trials? Katie Phang, host: Ashley Hymel is a Texas lawyer who runs the National Trial Competition, and apparently, she's also an amateur legal historian. Ashley Hymel: So for those of you who don't know trials before they were in a courtroom were by duel. And if you died, you were the one lying. That's how that was decided. So then we got to trials and maybe that was a little more fair, maybe not, maybe it was just one person shouting, "This is what happened." And a judge said, "I believe you." And so then we got rules of evidence and this is how we make sure that our trial system is working the way that it should. Obviously it is not perfect. I don't think any person would ever try to tell you that our justice system is perfect, but I think it's the best system we've got for trying to make sure that anybody accused of something has a fair shot for defending themselves with a lawyer who knows how this system works. Andy Vizcarra: I'm not shaking in my boots. Can I win? Probably no, probably not on my first one. If I'll be honest, I'd be very shocked. Which just sucks because I do believe this was an assault. I can't do it alone. And it'd be thinking very high of myself to think that I would be able to do this on my first try. Elie Honig: When you're working a real trial, it becomes your life for many months, sometimes for a year or more. From the moment you charge a case, or even from the moment you start investigating a case, there's always a little voice in the back of your head thinking, "How's this going to play at trial? What am I going to do at trial?" And then when you're actually on trial, those two weeks or six weeks or four months or whatever it may be, you, I didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I used to lose 15, 20 pounds when I was on trial. I don't have that much to lose. It was incredibly stressful and difficult. And then at the end, cathartic. Katie Phang, host: This is Elie Honig, former prosecutor in New York Southern District and a legal analyst at CNN. He knows that when a prosecutor like Andy is handed a brief, she'll have a lot of questions. Elie Honig: So two things about that. First of all, prosecutors rely on what we call an order of proof. And it's basically like, not quite a script, but it's just a listing of all your pieces of evidence from exhibit one through exhibit 1400. And you learn to use that as an outline and a guide to your case. But I want to say this about evidence, there's a misnomer out there or misperception that more is better. "Oh, a mountain of evidence." That phrase, right? "Oh look, they have huge amounts of evidence." That can really backfire. It's not about quantity of evidence. It's about quality of evidence. I learned that the hard way. There was really two different approaches to evidence. We used to say at the Southern District, there was the kitchen sinkers, the people who wanted to throw in everything they had. And then there was the thin to winners, which I became. The first mob trial I ever did, I was the junior person of three on the case and the guys who ran it were kitchen sinkers. And we did this trial that took two months, and we had hundreds and hundreds of exhibits. We played the jury, I think 90 or 95 different recordings that we had a cooperator who had made, and that case ended up going bad. We had a couple of the defendants were acquitted. We had a couple of defendants where the jury hung. So we got to retry those two defendants where the jury hung a year or so later, by this point I was leading it. We said, "Okay, we're cutting out all the fluff. We're going with our strongest evidence." We went from 90 or 95 recordings down to 12. We got that instead of a two-month trial, we did it in a week and a half or two weeks. The jury came back, convicted like that. Katie Phang, host: For this trial, it seems like Jason Goss is more of a kitchen sinker. He's dug up all sorts of apparent shenanigans on the part of the DA's office. First off, the 911 tape was destroyed by the DA's office, unclear why. And second, the victim, Boris, was previously convicted on a domestic violence charge involving his husband. That conviction was later overturned and the records were destroyed by the DA's office, which Jason argues is tantamount to a Brady violation, essentially accusing the state of withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense. Jason Goss: And for us, we believe that this guy has been railroaded all the way through. And we want the jury to see that at the end. Katie Phang, host: Since I wasn't at the trial, I do hesitate to characterize this as a smoke screen, but I can imagine this is going directly over the heads of the young prosecution team. Jason Goss: One thing I was always looking forward to on defense is like, this is the kind of stuff I try to get into when I was a prosecutor, the judge would always protect the defendant and say, "No, no, no, no, he can't get into that." But in this case, I feel like we're not getting... Tony Serra: You don't give a damn what the prosecution thinks about you or even the judge. Katie Phang, host: Tony Serra has seen it all before. He's 87, a West Coast trial legend and stalwart Defense Attorney. Tony Serra: I just finished a murder trial in San Jose. It took about three months, came back satisfactory. I got a trial set for November 7th. It's another attempted murder on a police officer's life. So I do controversial cases and I defend people who ordinarily are overlooked or marginalized in the legal system. I've been fighting racism. I've been fighting, what we call overzealous prosecutions, all of my career. So I tell the young lawyers, "It's a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as a calling. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission. If you regard it as a job and that you're going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're feeding into the status quo." Judge Rodriguez Key: At this time. I'd like for you to say [inaudible 00:20:01]. Attorney: He knocked his teeth out. He knocked him unconscious. Preet Bharara: Opening statements are among the most important parts of a trial. It's your first impression on the jury, so you need to begin with credibility. Lara Bazelon: I was really fortunate when I was starting out in the office of the Federal Public Defender in LA. Katie Phang, host: This is noted defense attorney, Lara Bazelon, who runs a law clinic for racial justice in San Francisco. Lara Bazelon: I had a supervisor. He said those 11 seconds, you'll never get them back. And he also said that a lot of lawyers really don't do opening statement justice, that they stand up and say an opening statement, "These are the elements of the offense. These are how I'm going to prove the elements of the offense." And the jury goes to sleep, but if you stand up and you have one sentence that crystallizes your case, and you're saying it in this passionate way, then all of a sudden you have 12 pairs of eyes that are focused on you. Jason Goss: There is a dispute. And so I want to talk to you about what actually happened and what the evidence is going to prove happening and how the world on September 7th, 2019, turned upside down. Because the one thing that she didn't tell you... Tony Serra: You've got to take over the court. You've got to dominate. Your personality has to be the strongest. Your contact with the jury has to be formidable. Katie Phang, host: Andy gets a shot at doing the first direct examination of a witness, Boris's husband. Judge Rodriguez Key: Place your right hand, you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Thank you, sir. You can lower your hand. Katie Phang, host: But true to life, the guy has a hearing problem and the microphones in the courtroom aren't working and well, it's a modern-day trial by fire. Andy Vizcarra Your Honor, before I start, I just want to let the court know Mr. --- have a bit of a hearing problem. So just for everyone, would you speak up a little bit now. You can't hear me. Oh, sorry. All right. Turn this out. Can you hear me a little better from here? Judge Rodriguez Key: Just watch your [inaudible 00:22:10]. Andy Vizcarra Oh, sorry. Andy Vizcarra: It's a real jury. I think it's similar in a lot of ways, but it's also, I mean, it's different in a lot of ways. I have to remember little things that I wouldn't have to remember in mock, right? Like I'm making eye contact with all of them. Are you following me? How do I look to them? Preet Bharara: One of the hardest things to do, particularly early on, is keep the poker face. There's nothing more important than the poker face. Jurors are looking at the lawyers at their tables. Are going back and forth often from the person on the witness stand, to the lawyer at the table to see if they're reacting poorly at something. Jason Goss: We don't have an objection, both her and I question him close to him and we can just question, the jury can see. Judge Rodriguez Key: I like that idea if you wanted to try it. Preet Bharara: So a juror might hear a witness say something. They're like, "Oh, that sounds like it's harmful to the prosecution. Look and see, did the prosecution flinch? Are they passing notes?" Because they might not know, because they haven't connected all the things together. You know the case better than any juror will ever know the case. Andy Vizcarra Good afternoon. Would you introduce yourself again to the members of the jury? Witness: I'm sorry? Andy Vizcarra Would you introduce yourself, again, to the members of the jury? Witness: Yeah. Judge Rodriguez Key: Okay. Give it a shot, you'll be closer. Andy Vizcarra A little bit closer? Okay. Would you please introduce yourself again to the members of the jury? Lara Bazelon: I tend to have a lot of emotional reactions that show themselves in my face. And so I've had to train myself to not do that. And I think the other thing I've had to do is look less stern because unfortunately that kind of expression, particularly in women, is off putting. It's funny, I've always been told by my supervisors that, "You need to smile more, Lara." And I'm like, "There's nothing to smile about here." This is a very high stakes, very grim situation. The walls are weeping. Andy Vizcarra Can you hear me now? Perfect. All right. Would you introduce yourself one more time for the members? Witness: Absolutely... Lara Bazelon: It's not a smiley face cheerleading time. At the same time, I do think there are occasional moments of levity and that it's good to look like someone who people can, in some way, relate to. Andy Vizcarra And did you see him act aggressively? Did he punch the car? Was he doing anything aggressive...? Witness: No. Andy Vizcarra ... that you could see from your porch? Okay. And then you said that you saw him leave, right? Witness: Right. Andy Vizcarra He left. And do you know where he went? Witness: Well, he never got [inaudible 00:24:54]. Andy Vizcarra Okay. Did it look like... from where you were standing, did it look like he was trying to trespass onto the property? Witness: No. Andy Vizcarra Did it look like he was trying to break into their home? Witness: They were parked on the street, curbside. In front of their house. Andy Vizcarra Okay. So he knocks on the window. That's what you see. After that, what do you see? Witness: After that…. Andy Vizcarra I've done many trials in front of fake juries, but so it's just kind of, it's a weird duality that exists right now. And so I'm like not trying to make excuses for myself and I don't want to ever do that to her because she's right, I do know better, but at the same time, I'm still learning and I'll continue to be keep learning. So I just, taking everything with stride. Andy Vizcarra At any point, did you see your husband pull a gun? Witness: Never. Never. Andy Vizcarra Did you see a gun at all that night? Witness: No. I'm extremely anti guns, have always been anti gun. The way we were brought up. I never allow guns in my house at all. Andy Vizcarra Okay. But you're aware that your husband does own a gun. Witness: He has one gun that I'm aware of. I've never seen it. Jason Goss: Okay. So let me get it right. Turn the music down. Started walking with the dog. They rolled up the window. They started blasting the music. He finished the walk with the dog. He brought the dog inside, went back over to them and told them, "Turn the music down." Katie Phang, host: A good defense attorney like Jason Goss. He's going to pick apart a fuzzy headed witness like this while on cross. Jason Goss: That's what you testified. Based on what you saw, there's no reason to call the cops on him. Based upon what you could see. Witness: That's right. Jason Goss: And you don't want him to go to jail, your husband. Witness: There would be nothing for him to go to jail for that way. Jason Goss: Obviously this group of people is upset. You would agree with that, right? Witness: I don't understand the question. Jason Goss: Obviously, they're upset. You said that they're yelling and they're screaming, we call the cops... Tony Serra: I've been confrontational all my life. I have a dear friend at, was in college, All American Football for Oklahoma. And when I've done cases with him, it's as if, if he doesn't get the answer he wants, he's going to walk up and slug you with his fist. And he would just stand up there like he had a stick in his head or some kind of a baseball bat. And he be slugging this witness if he didn't tell the truth and I was going, "Oh boy, that guy's good. I want to be like that." Jason Goss: When the cops first asked you, she said, "You didn't see any of this?" You said, "No, I saw nothing." You heard yourself say that? Witness: Yes. Jason Goss: And you also said, "I was in bed and I heard my dogs running." That's what you said to the police officer. But you testified to the jury that you were in your home office, but you told the officer, you were in bed. Witness: Okay. Tony Serra: Scare them into telling the truth, confront them, shake your finger in their face when you think they're lying. In every single jury trial, there will be something to go after that is untrue coming from the prosecution. Their witnesses frequently are tainted, they have a history. They have been impeached so many times. So what I tell young lawyers, just the most important thing about being a trial lawyer. "You got to know everything. You got to read every bit of discovery. If your mind isn't good enough to retain it, then try another profession." Jason Goss: So you cannot even tell us right now that your memory of something five minutes after it happened was better than your memory of something two and a half years after. Andy Vizcarra: Objection your honor. This has been asked and answer [inaudible 00:29:18]. He's already answered the best of his ability and... Judge Rodriguez Key: I'll sustain, asked and answered. Next question. Jason Goss: Well, you said you do not remember... Andy Vizcarra: I'm just feeling... I don't know. It's weird. I'm feeling like my skills were good, but I... There's a lot of things to this case, and I think substantively, I think I'm feeling a little defeated just because, I mean, you really, we pretrial our witnesses and you really never know what they're going to act like on the stand. And you can tell them a million times, "This is what you need to do. Just yes or no, just answer my questions." And you never know how they're going to react. I mean, and it was, and you can, now I see the practicality of it that it's like, it'll blow up your case. Jason Goss: You said you do not remember speaking to the police at all. Witness: I do not recall. Jason Goss: When seeing yourself on their body camera, speaking to them, helped to refresh your memory about what you said that night. Witness: Okay. Andy Vizcarra: You know, he walks around this place and throughout the day, like all of these little prosecutors were coming into trial and they weren't coming in to see us, they were coming in to see him, because they know how good he is. So I mean, it just, I mean, it's so cool. And obviously it would be so much cooler if he wasn't on the other side. Judge Rodriguez Key: Please raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the whole truth in this matter? Officer Garcia: Yes. Judge Rodriguez Key: Thank you. You can have a seat. Microphone does work? If you could just state your name please. Attorney: Okay. Officer Garcia, what do you do for a living? Officer Garcia: I'm a San Antonio police officer. Prosecutor: Okay. And how long have you been doing that? Officer Garcia: Little over five years. Prosecutor: A little over five years? Officer Garcia: Yes. Ma'am. Katie Phang, host: Later on in the day, patrol Officer Garcia is called to the stand. In their questioning, prosecutors Andy and Cassidy are courteous and respectful of law enforcement. Prosecutor: Okay. So when you arrived on scene, can you kind of give us a brief description of what was going on? Officer Garcia: Yes. So once I arrived on scene, basically I saw a small crowd of people over a male on the ground. So obviously as an officer went to attend into... Katie Phang, host: They wrap up Officer Garcia's testimony pretty quickly. But then Jason Goss comes back to his objection about the admissibility of Boris's criminal background and his husband's history of lying to the police. Officer Garcia sits down from the stand, the jury is excused and Goss and the judge argue case law and legal precedent for an hour. Jason Goss: The whole idea of that, but the fact that this witness, that the DA's office believes that this witness did not tell the truth and then called this person as a witness and did not tell us... Katie Phang, host: They drone on and on and on. And then the day is done. Round one goes to the defense. Andy Vizcarra: We walked out of the courtroom and I was like, I feel like... You ever feel like you've been in a boxing match with the person that taught you how to box? It's like not. It, yeah. I mean, it's a lot. You want to decompress and you're like, okay, but there's still a really long way to go in this trial, which is crazy, because it's a misdemeanor. I don't know why it's a misdemeanor, but it is. Bailey Moravec: I really don't know what I envision myself as in being a lawyer because with my last two summers of working, it's just, you're constantly changing on how you approach things. And so I don't really think I'll know who I am as a lawyer for maybe 10 years into practice. It takes 10 years to be comfortable doing what you're doing. But I would like to be my goal of what I'd like to be in a lawyer, someone who is very patient, because it does take a lot of patience and time to work with people in general. I think no matter what career you go into. And I would like to be someone who has answers, I want to be a lawyer where someone's comfortable saying, "We know we can go to Bailey, she's going to solve whatever issue I have." So that's my goal. Phoebe Menaker: So what's happening now in DA's offices, especially Brooklyn is, it's not just what happens with a perpetrator in a case. Is not solely dependent on the charges they're facing, or the victim's preference in what happens. We also have to take into account what will help the defendant. How can we prevent this from happening again? What will do justice for the defendant, the victim, while keeping public safety in mind. Ellie Sands: I do work for Prisoners’ Legal Services as my externship. It'll be going on three semesters now and my clients have committed very egregious crimes there. So in a sense, I am making the choice to advocate for someone who has committed murder, who has committed rape, and who has made the choice to do something consciously, that is quite a terrible offense. But in that case, their constitutional rights have still been violated. And so I do believe that although this person has made a decision, that doesn't negate the government's responsibility to grant them their constitutional rights. Katie Phang, host: That was Bailey Moravec, Phoebe Menaker, and Ellie Sands. [sound of gavel banging three times in court] Katie Phang, host: The next day, Officer Garcia has to wait another hour while the defense continues to argue about the old conviction, the judge has had enough and resolves the issue and puts it on the record for any future appeal. Jason Goss: Okay, may I begin? Officer Garcia, my name is Jason Goss. I'm a defense attorney here. I was a prosecutor... Katie Phang, host: Finally, Officer Garcia is recalled to the stand for her cross examination, and she'll sit in that witness chair for the next four hours while her every move and motivation will be picked apart by Jason Goss. Jason Goss: ... I understand. I would want you to think that you didn't do your best. What I'm really trying to point out is there's a difference between what happened that night in your mind and what actually happened, right? Officer Garcia: Yes. Jason Goss: And you have training about how to deal with people who have done this. Officer Garcia: Yes. Jason Goss: And have you been, when you went to the police academy and otherwise, have you been trained on what self defense is and what it can be used? Would you agree that the investigation almost solely focused on the two guys? Katie Phang, host: Maybe owing to their inexperience, or simple exhaustion, the prosecution had very few objections. Andy Vizcarra: I think most people would agree with me that you don't back down from a case. When you're a prosecutor, I would think, when I'm a prosecutor, and I have a case that I really believe in and that I want to bring to trial, I don't think I'd back down just because I, "Oh, opposing counsel's big and scary and so good." Which is why we were like, "Wow, this is weird." Jasmin Olguin: But it's really cool seeing our coach, like he really is such an icon for us because his presence, the way he gets things out, I don't know. I'm just really happy to be here. And just everything he's been saying, it's like my heart, like the whole Brady thing, I was like heart, heart, heart. Court Bailiff All rise for the jury. Judge Rodriguez Key: Thanks everyone. Please have a seat. Jasmin Olguin: Good morning, Mr. Farmer, will you introduce yourself to the members of the jury? Witness: Yes. Hi, my name is (beep). Jasmin Olguin: I want the jury to get to know you a little bit. So where do you live? Witness: I live at (beep). Jasmin Olguin: How long have you lived there? Witness: 50 years. Except for a couple years, when I went off to college. Katie Phang, host: On day three, Jasmin, who had been sitting quietly taking notes and strategizing with Jason, she gets her chance to do a short, direct of a key witness for the defense. Jasmin Olguin: Have you ever had a problem with the (beep) any music? Witness: No. Jasmin Olguin: Since (beep) moved in, have you been able to interact with them? Witness: Yes. Jasmin Olguin: Have you been able to see their interactions with other neighbors? Witness: Yes. Jasmin Olguin: Have you been able to see them interact with each other? Witness: Yes. Jasmin Olguin: Then these five years. Do you have enough experience to be able to form an opinion on (beep)? Witness: I believe so. Jasmin Olguin: Do you have an opinion on (beep) the character for violence? Witness: I believe it's pro to violence. Jasmin Olguin: Do you have an opinion on (beep) character for untruthfulness? Witness: I don't believe him to be trustworthy. Jasmin Olguin: We pass the witness, your honor. Judge Rodriguez Key: Your witness. Andy Vizcarra: Yes, your Honor. Katie Phang, host: And just like that, the case for the prosecution is on the rocks, and Jason Goss is on deck. Jasmin Olguin: Yesterday we were having a lot of technical issues. It was really late. And I told coach, "Coach, I could finish this if you want to go work on your close." And he said, "No, I don't have to work on anything." I was like, "I hate myself. Why would I tell him that?" Jason Goss: But you guys hear their burden prove it's beyond a reasonable doubt. And it's not just beyond reasonable doubt that (beep) assault their house or hit or pushed or shoved or rolled in the bushes, because you can believe all of that beyond a reasonable doubt, but they still have to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that it's not self defense. And remember, this is not serious bodily injury. This is bodily injury. They are entitled to do bodily injury. That is forced. The judge is ready to the law. They're entitled to use force to prevent trespass. They're entitled to punch somebody in the face. They're entitled to throw them on the ground. They're entitled to push them. They're entitled to do whatever they can do... Katie Phang, host: It's safe to say that Andy was tapping her feet the whole time, just itching to get in there. And finally, she gets her big chance to do a closing. Andy Vizcarra: But I'm going to tell you that the world didn't flip on that day at this point, it just didn't, the world kept turning. Just like it always does. Right outside, the way it always has, the way it always will. See people fight, they knock each other out. I know you know this. Sometimes they have good reason. Sometimes they have reason. Sometimes they have no reason at all. Sometimes people knock each other out, get into fights just because they can, because they're the bigger guy. So I'm big and you're small. Because I didn't like the way you looked at me. I didn't like the way you spoke to me. I didn't like that you came over here at 4:00 in the morning and told me to turn the music down. I can do whatever I want. Katie Phang, host: She even pulls out the old Saint Mary's chestnut, the salute to the American flag. Andy Vizcarra: It's like when you look behind the judge at that flag, that's resting on the flagpole, and you can't see all the stars and you can't see all the stripes, you still know, right? Beyond reasonable doubt, you know what that is. You know that's the flag of the United States of America, or the laws that we have are meant to keep people safe, or the laws that we have are meant to keep our community safe, or the laws that we have try their best never to condone violence. Always try to say violence is not the answer. You, the jury, have the power to decide on the facts of this case. You, the jury, have the power to decide whether you're going to allow violence to be the answer in your community, whether it's okay if you don't like how someone talks to you, if you don't like how they look at you, that you can knock their teeth out and you can knock them almost unconscious just because you can. Today I ask that you find the defendant guilty. Maritza Stewart: She fought and she fought, and she fought and I knew this day would come where I would see her in trial one day. And I didn't know fresh off of that last loss, which I know she took a lot really hard, because she didn't get to get in the game. And I told her that something big is going to happen soon. And I don't know if she ever would realize how big this is because she's just being Andy. It all came together. It culminated all together. Everything that we've practiced, played, prayed, everything for her. I saw it in that moment and seen her argue against him and not back down. It makes me feel so proud. I'm not her mother. I'm not her sister, but I just, I feel like she's family. And just like, even when I saw Jasmin asking questions, like you just see these babies and they come through and you're just like, I wonder, I know they're good people and I just, I hope they continue on and work on their skills. And she did that. I mean, she killed it. So, I mean, I just, I don't know. It is amazing feeling and I just could do nothing but smile, tear up, cry. Judge Rodriguez Key: Yes. Ma'am. You have a verdict? Juror: Yes, I do. Judge Rodriguez Key: All right. Thank you now, Ms. --- is it unanimous? Juror: Yes, it is. We, the jury find the defendant not guilty. Judge Rodriguez Key: All right. Thank you for your jury service. Thank you so much. Wow. Wow. Longest trial I've ever done. Hardest trial I've ever done. The most law I've ever seen. Some of the best work I've ever seen. So I hope you can appreciate what you saw here today. Andy Vizcarra: The verdict was not guilty. The jury did come back pretty quick. So I think, I don't know anything. This is my first time, but I was like, "That cannot be good." For the State at least. Like coach said, like just as his, "Whatever an impartial juror of your peers says it is." And I think that's the beauty of it. And I think, I just feel really grateful that I've gotten this training that allows you to see both sides of the coin and allows you to see that just like there can be bad people on both sides, there can be really great people on both sides. And there can be people that are fighting for the community and hey, are we going to say that this is right? Are we going to just go around, letting people just punch each other just because you can? Or because you're mad? Or even if you have a reason, all right, relax. Regardless, I think that is what justice is. And, I mean, this time it wasn't it, this time they said it was okay, but that's the beauty of it. So, onto the next. Jasmin Olguin: I got kind of choked up. Like I wanted to cry, but I was just so happy. Like you heard the client's wife gasp and start crying and you could, I could see him physically start getting emotional, but it was such a joy because it was an injustice to him. And for two years, he's had to be reporting to somebody when he didn't do anything wrong. And it's just, now he can just walk out those doors and he can go to fiesta, he can do this and he doesn't have to live like that anymore. And I was so happy. I prayed after. I was like, "Thank God that happened." And obviously coach that closing was incredible. So it was really awesome. I was really happy. Preet Bharara: Look, the law is about rules. I believe in rules, but more important than rules it is something that is based on principles and values. And those are values of equal justice and fairness of process and everything about that is fascinating to me. I began a little bit the study of law when I was in middle school and I read Inherit The Wind, which is about the scopes trial, right? The ability of a teacher to teach about evolution in a school in Tennessee. And I love the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and all the mechanisms that you use, not only to get justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth comes out and I've always thought of it as a noble pursuit. I say this to commencement audiences all the time. There's a lot of power in a legal degree. You know, individuals have power. Generally they have their voice. They can protest, they can run for office. There's lots of things you can do. But I think there has been an appreciation as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack from a lot of different places over the last number of years. That's not a bad thing to have a law degree and have the privilege of access to a court, to redress grievances, and equalize the playing field for people who don't have access to justice. Andy Viczarra: I guess it's good for the learning curve part aspect of it, right? We're learning a lot, but it's really hard to balance, full-time student this week, full-time lawyer also. And it's really, I think we just, we wear a lot of hats and it's hard. Jasmin Olguin: Do you wear a white hat, though? Andy Viczarra: I'm the only one that wears a white hat. Jasmin Olguin: We're actually the ones that wear the right white hats. Andy Viczarra: Oh, shut up. I literally my caption for... Jasmin Olguin: Did you hear when you said that for? Andy Viczarra: Yeah. My caption for barrister picture, don't think I forgot. My caption for my very first picture was, "My white hat is bigger than your white hat." Like if it's going to be someone, yeah, I want it to be me. Katie Phang, host: Andy and Jasmin graduated from law school and have been studying for the bar exam all summer long. Andy is now working for the DA's office and Jasmin continues to work with Jason Goss, who knows? They will likely face off again at trial in the future. The St. Mary's team wrapped up its season. It wasn't all disappointing. One of AJ's teams won first place at the National Trial League Competition. Announcer: I'd like to announce that the winning team is the defense team. [crowd cheers and screams] AJ Bellido de Luna: I don't care where they are today. I want to know where they are two years from now when they leave. And I get so much satisfaction when they graduate, when I'm sitting there at graduation, I'm looking up at the stage and I see them walk across, I remember the person that walked in the first time. [audio from trial team boot camp at St. Mary’s] AJ Bellido de Luna: How's everybody doing? Who did not see the video on cross examination? Great. Raven, you want to come up here and cross examine Abby? AJ Bellido de Luna: Because if I can make that connection with you today, I can make you a lawyer tomorrow and then you're going to go out and you're going to do good. AJ Bellido de Luna: From chapter one, Case Analysis. You've made some connection to how that works with the rest of the case. Katie Phang, host: Next on Class Action, for the first time in its history, the Dillard team goes to the national championship. [audio from the American Mock Trial Association National Championship Tournament] Grant Keener: Well, good afternoon, everyone. How special is it to all be together again? Brandon Harper: Welcome to nationals. Okay, I'm going to do it again. Welcome to the in-person National Championship! In court room A, representing the state, the Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech Team 1001. Female Student: Hey, all I'm Cervi. I'm from Georgia tech. We're over there. Go Jackets! Brandon Harper: The Blue Devils of Dillard University, team 1216. Renee Simen: Hello, I'm Renee Simien. Amaya Ronczyk: And my name is Amaya Ronczyk. I'm the captain of the Dillard University mock trial team in New Orleans. Renee Simen: And as we say in New Orleans, “Laissez les bon temps rouler!" "Let the good times roll!" [crowd cheers and applause] Katie Phang, host: That's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Created, produced, written and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Additional story production by Jennifer Swann, Kristen Cabrera, Jason Foster and Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norville. Sound, design, editing, and mixing by Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine. This episode had additional field production by Kristen Cabrera. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Previous Next

Characters ADRIA KIMBROUGH Coach, Dillard University "Let's do something a little different this year. Like, maybe we don't talk as much. And let's be clear, the goal is the same. But, instead, taking that same energy and focusing it on what we're doing right now, what we are doing in this bootcamp. What we are going to be doing Monday at practice." LAURA ROSE Coach, University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law "Stand firm on your knowledge. Stand firm on your preparation. Don't worry about the individual components of it right now. You know how to flow with this. You're a monster. Get in there and destroy people." PHOEBE MENAKER Student, Brooklyn Law "My grandmother was a social worker for victims and survivors of domestic violence. Between her impact that she's had on me and my general interest, that's brought me to the Victim Advocacy route." LAJEANNE SHELTON Student, Dillard University "The young lady who was the middle attorney, she said that she really appreciated that we were a team of all Black women. It made her feel really empowered as a woman." JASON GOSS Coach, St. Mary's University "I know justice isn't perfect. But we as attorneys, we at least have the opportunity every day to try to achieve it. And that's why I became a lawyer." COLE DAVILA Student, St. Mary's University "May it please the court. Our circumstances determine our conditions. The decisions that we make at any given moment can change our lives for better or worse." ELLIE SANDS Student, Brooklyn Law "People who are human, and who have been to rock bottom and build themselves back up again, deserve a second chance. This is an individual. This is a human being. And if you just met her, you would understand." AMAYA RONCZYK Student, Dillard University "It's important that there's a place for lawyers that work with empathy, that sympathize with their clients, that understand that there's more behind the story. It's important that the person sitting at the defendant's table, that their story is portrayed in a way that makes the jury or the judge empathize or place themselves in their shoes." AJ BELLIDO de LUNA Coach, St. Mary's University "I'm not building competitors. I'm building advocates. I'm building people who are going to go out and represent people who don't have representation." ANJANI SHAH Student, Brooklyn Law "I stand here, because I want the jury to see me and my reactions. And you, as the witness, are now looking at me and not them. That has quite an effect on the jury as well, when you're diverting your eyes away from them." KATHRINE BOYKO Student, Brooklyn Law "My mom was a lawyer in Ukraine. She had to leave her home country to make sure I had a better life. And so it was really important for me to carry on those dreams, carry on that ambition." CAITLIN DOUGLAS Student, Dillard University "I'm a troublemaker to a lot of people. I was heavily involved back home in protesting, marching and grassroots activism. And so, I'm deemed pretty aggressive most of the time because I stand ten toes down on what I believe in. It's good trouble. I make good trouble." Load More

Class Action WITH KATIE PHANG The Lawyer Podcast A podcast documentary series about the next Generation of Lawyers Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Pocket Casts Spotify Google Podcasts RSS About Class Action Class Action is an immersive 12 part documentary podcast series about the next generation of lawyers, heard through the voices of law students competing in mock trial tournaments around the country. ​ The series will debut on June 7th on iHeart, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. ​ Producers spent a year following three law school teams and an undergraduate pre-law program. The series follows a natural narrative arc of the season. Just like in athletics, there are intensive bootcamps and scrimmages, then high-stakes tournaments against other schools. The cases range from mob murders, arson and to civil rights law. And the action is fierce. Class Action is a production of Sound Argument and iHeartMedia. Read More Episodes 1. Boot Camp for Lawyers The 100-degree heat in San Antonio won't stop St. Mary's University coach AJ Bellido de Luna from drilling his team on the fundamentals. “We’re going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students. These students are here to make a difference,” he says. And for coach Laura Rose at the University of South Dakota, being midwest nice has no place in a mock trial tournament. She lays down the law; “You guys are engaged in a highly competitive law school sport.” Listen Now 12. The Promised Land For the first time in its history, Dillard sends a team to the National Tournament! Dozens of teams from around the country descend on Lancaster, PA, to not only admire the trophies, but to battle each other in the old courthouse. Adria has brought her team to the Promised Land in what will be her last tournament with the team. History will be made. Listen Now 4. The Battle of the Experts Dawn breaks for the “Battle of the Experts.” In San Antonio, St. Mary’s team rookie Mariela Encinas prays for success at the Red Mass, the 13th-century Catholic ceremony that traditionally offers a blessing to the legal community for the upcoming court year. In South Dakota, the team gets stoked up on pasta and smoothies. Coach Rose makes it simple for her team, telling them “Blood makes the grass grow." Then, the judges call the trials to order, and it is on. Listen Now 7. Don’t Mess with Texas After a disappointing showing in the Battle of the Experts, the St. Mary's team is back together, determined to make a comeback. Mariela joins Andy, Jasmin and Cole, this time as an advocate. They pledge allegiance to Justice Sotomayor and Bad Bunny. The team is on the precipice of winning, only to face discrimination during a controversial semi-final round. Andy and her family celebrate El Grito. Listen Now 10. Any Given Sunday It’s been a grueling season for AJ’s St. Mary’s squad. Spirits are low. Exhaustion has creeped in. The Regional Competition is around the corner – and the case packet has just dropped. If they win in Houston, they advance to Nationals. Lose, and they go home. And standing in their way is perennial nemesis, Baylor University. The odds are low, but when the finals are held on a Sunday, anything can happen. Listen Now 2. Breathe. Think. Relax. It's boot camp graduation day at St. Mary's, and the nervous 2L’s must pass one final test before they can make the team: Cross-examine their coach in an actual courtroom. AJ is a former Marine. One by one, they march down Mosquito Alley in their suits. AJ is ready. “Some who you thought were going to do great are gonna fall flat on their face. Some who struggled, had a light bulb go off last night and are going to do fantastic. Everyone else is going to be in the middle.” Tears will be shed. Listen Now 5. A Ram in the Bush The undergraduate trial season at Dillard University gets off to a disastrous start as Hurricane Ida lays waste to the campus, forcing students into hotels for safety. Coach Adria Kimbrough must quickly re-assemble her team and get them prepped for its first competition at Ole Miss., where generations ago, Black students were denied entry. Times change and the Dillard team rallies, but some victories are bittersweet. Listen Now 8. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Matt Skinner and Tyler Volesky are sons of prominent defense attorneys in South Dakota who honor their Native American heritage by fighting for justice. Matt takes us inside the Minnehaha County Public Defender’s office, where he argues in real court on behalf of a Native client. Tyler is following in his father's footsteps in both law and politics. But first, he must overcome some obstacles in the world of mock trial. Listen Now 11. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Mock trial is supposed to prepare you for a real trial. Andy and Jasmin are about to see if that’s true. They are going to face off in Bexar County Court for an actual case in front of a judge and jury. Special guests and law students from the various schools join in to share some of their favorite law tips and career advice. Listen Now 3. Mob Hits and the H-E-B “Never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut.” The first big tournament of the season is a murder case based on the plot of Martin Scorsese’s Goodfellas. The teams are practicing saying “consigliere” and figuring out what the difference is between a “capo” and a “soldier.” In between we get a lesson on South Dakota geography (cowboy hats out west), and take a trip to H.E.B. (el Heb) for triple shot espressos. Listen Now 6. Civil Rights and How to Make a Cup of Chai Anjani Shah and Ellie Sands lead an all-female team from Brooklyn Law against an all-male team from Harvard University at the annual Martin Luther King Jr. National Civil Rights Competition. It’s an epic battle for an important cause. Anjani's immigrant parents watch the trial online, and her dad teaches us how to make a proper cup of chai. Back on campus, Ellie appeals to President Biden for clemency on behalf of her endangered client. Listen Now 9. Survive and Advance Adria is a fan of the philosopher Nick Saban, the decorated coach of the Alabama football team. She and Judge Kern Reese want their team to stay focused, be clear and concise. Tight. She sends her team to an invitational in Houston to see who is ready for the big time in the spring. The results are mixed. Back home in New Orleans, the team rallies and punches their ticket to the Regional Championship. Listen Now

Episodes Class Action Trailer Class Action is a twelve-part podcast documentary series that tracks a diverse cast of outstanding law students who are battling it out in mock trial competitions across the country. Host Katie Phang takes you inside the high stakes world of mock trial competitions, where you'll follow the drama of four teams fighting to win the National Championship. Read More and Transcript 1. Boot Camp for Lawyers The 100-degree heat in San Antonio won't stop St. Mary's University coach AJ Bellido de Luna from drilling his team on the fundamentals. “We’re going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students. These students are here to make a difference,” he says. And for coach Laura Rose at the University of South Dakota, being midwest nice has no place in a mock trial tournament. She lays down the law; “You guys are engaged in a highly competitive law school sport.” Read More and Transcript 2. Breathe. Think. Relax. It's boot camp graduation day at St. Mary's, and the nervous 2L’s must pass one final test before they can make the team: Cross-examine their coach in an actual courtroom. AJ is a former Marine. One by one, they march down Mosquito Alley in their suits. AJ is ready. “Some who you thought were going to do great are gonna fall flat on their face. Some who struggled, had a light bulb go off last night and are going to do fantastic. Everyone else is going to be in the middle.” Tears will be shed. Read More and Transcript 3. Mob Hits and the H-E-B “Never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut.” The first big tournament of the season is a murder case based on the plot of Martin Scorsese’s Goodfellas. The teams are practicing saying “consigliere” and figuring out what the difference is between a “capo” and a “soldier.” In between we get a lesson on South Dakota geography (cowboy hats out west), and take a trip to H.E.B. (el Heb) for triple shot espressos. Read More and Transcript 4. The Battle of the Experts Dawn breaks for the “Battle of the Experts.” In San Antonio, St. Mary’s team rookie Mariela Encinas prays for success at the Red Mass, the 13th-century Catholic ceremony that traditionally offers a blessing to the legal community for the upcoming court year. In South Dakota, the team gets stoked up on pasta and smoothies. Coach Rose makes it simple for her team, telling them “Blood makes the grass grow." Then, the judges call the trials to order, and it is on. Read More and Transcript 5. A Ram in the Bush The undergraduate trial season at Dillard University gets off to a disastrous start as Hurricane Ida lays waste to the campus, forcing students into hotels for safety. Coach Adria Kimbrough must quickly re-assemble her team and get them prepped for its first competition at Ole Miss., where generations ago, Black students were denied entry. Times change and the Dillard team rallies, but some victories are bittersweet. Read More and Transcript 6. Civil Rights and How to Make a Cup of Chai Anjani Shah and Ellie Sands lead an all-female team from Brooklyn Law against an all-male team from Harvard University at the annual Martin Luther King Jr. National Civil Rights Competition. It’s an epic battle for an important cause. Anjani's immigrant parents watch the trial online, and her dad teaches us how to make a proper cup of chai. Back on campus, Ellie appeals to President Biden for clemency on behalf of her endangered client. Read More and Transcript Bonus: Katie catches up with Brooklyn Law School A spate of recent Supreme Court decisions are eroding the civil rights of all Americans, especially women. Katie Phang checks in with the Brooklyn team to gauge their reactions to the overturning of Roe v Wade and other decisions. Listen to how these future lawyers plan to fight for and protect our rights. Read More and Transcript 7. Don’t Mess with Texas After a disappointing showing in the Battle of the Experts, the St. Mary's team is back together, determined to make a comeback. Mariela joins Andy, Jasmin and Cole, this time as an advocate. They pledge allegiance to Justice Sotomayor and Bad Bunny. The team is on the precipice of winning, only to face discrimination during a controversial semi-final round. Andy and her family celebrate El Grito. Read More and Transcript 8. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants Matt Skinner and Tyler Volesky are sons of prominent defense attorneys in South Dakota who honor their Native American heritage by fighting for justice. Matt takes us inside the Minnehaha County Public Defender’s office, where he argues in real court on behalf of a Native client. Tyler is following in his father's footsteps in both law and politics. But first, he must overcome some obstacles in the world of mock trial. Read More and Transcript 9. Survive and Advance Adria is a fan of the philosopher Nick Saban, the decorated coach of the Alabama football team. She and Judge Kern Reese want their team to stay focused, be clear and concise. Tight. She sends her team to an invitational in Houston to see who is ready for the big time in the spring. The results are mixed. Back home in New Orleans, the team rallies and punches their ticket to the Regional Championship. Read More and Transcript 10. Any Given Sunday It’s been a grueling season for AJ’s St. Mary’s squad. Spirits are low. Exhaustion has creeped in. The Regional Competition is around the corner – and the case packet has just dropped. If they win in Houston, they advance to Nationals. Lose, and they go home. And standing in their way is perennial nemesis, Baylor University. The odds are low, but when the finals are held on a Sunday, anything can happen. Read More and Transcript 11. Why do you want to be a lawyer? Mock trial is supposed to prepare you for a real trial. Andy and Jasmin are about to see if that’s true. They are going to face off in Bexar County Court for an actual case in front of a judge and jury. Special guests and law students from the various schools join in to share some of their favorite law tips and career advice. Read More and Transcript 12. The Promised Land For the first time in its history, Dillard sends a team to the National Tournament! Dozens of teams from around the country descend on Lancaster, PA, to not only admire the trophies, but to battle each other in the old courthouse. Adria has brought her team to the Promised Land in what will be her last tournament with the team. History will be made. Read More and Transcript Bonus: Home for the Holidays in the Valley In this bonus episode, Genesis Salinas, 2L, from St. Mary’s in San Antonio, Texas, takes us to her family’s home in the Rio Grande Valley. The Valley is at the southernmost point of Texas, at the meeting point of Mexico and the U.S., making it rich in history and culture. Genesis and her family share their holiday memories and traditions with cookies, arroz con leche, and a children’s Christmas carol. Read More and Transcript Bonus: Texas Tales - Checking in with AJ and Andy Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with St. Mary’s Law coach AJ Bellido de Luna and former student Andy Vizcarra. You’ll hear some of their personal experiences about being followed by the podcast production team, reflections on upsetting moments during last season’s tournaments, and exciting current news about the team. Read More and Transcript Bonus: Life as a 1L Producers Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray check in with former Dillard students Amaya Ronczyk and Lajeanne Shelton. Amaya is currently a 1L at Harvard Law, and Lajeanne is a 1L at UC Hastings Law. They talk about their personal experiences as a first-year law student, along with giving some helpful advice for future students, going from an HBCU to a PWI, skills carried over from the Dillard Mock Trial team into their current courses, and some exciting news about this year’s Dillard case law. Read More and Transcript

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< Back ELIE HONIG with guest, CNN Senior Legal Analyst, former federal and state prosecutor, bestselling author "Getting people to flip is really the name of the game when it comes to the mob. That is how you're going to make your big cases." Previous Next

< Back ANDY VIZCARRA Student, St. Mary's University "The point is that you have to keep fighting. You cannot stop fighting, the entire way. It's like we're bleeding in practice so we don't bleed in competition." Previous Next

< Back TYLER VOLESKY Student, University of South Dakota "I don't know what your stereotypes about South Dakota people are, but, I've never hunted. I don't fish. I don't camp. I don't hike. On a cold day in early November, the last thing I want to do is be in a field at seven o'clock in the morning when it's 32 degrees out." Previous Next

< Back Episode 2 2. Breathe. Think. Relax. Air date: June 7, 2022 It's boot camp graduation day at St. Mary's, and the nervous 2L’s must pass one final test before they can make the team: Cross-examine their coach in an actual courtroom. AJ is a former Marine. One by one, they march down Mosquito Alley in their suits. AJ is ready. “Some who you thought were going to do great are gonna fall flat on their face. Some who struggled, had a light bulb go off last night and are going to do fantastic. Everyone else is going to be in the middle.” Tears will be shed. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: St. Mary's University Law School Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com . Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . Transcript Katie Phang (narration): Class Action is a production of iHeartRadio and Sound Argument. Kevin Huffman: All right, where are we going? AJ Bellido de Luna: So we are heading over to the courtroom. The only way to get through it is through this special door, with the special key. And you have to go through mosquito alley to get there, but it doesn't matter because we're going to get there. Justice prevails. Katie Phang: Coach AJ Bellido de Luna is preparing the mock courtroom on campus for today’s exam. AJ Bellido de Luna: I don't remember which key it is. Not that one. Okay, that's weird. It does look like they did something to the lock. Well, that is clearly a problem. Just relax, take a deep breath. Plan B, find the key. AJ Bellido de Luna: So apparently at some point, someone decided to change the lock to the back door of the courtroom, and nobody has a key. I want to give the kids the courtroom experience. They've earned it. I want them to have the majesty of the court, the judge sitting perched on her chair and the witness in the box and the jury in the room. I want to give them that. I think they've earned it. Katie Phang: Today is the final day of boot camp for the second-year law students trying out for the St Mary's University mock trial team. By 8:00 AM, the students are climbing out of their trucks and family cars. They're dressed for action. Hair is cut, nails are done. It's 100 degrees outside, but it's even hotter inside the black and gray suits of the law courts. This is class action, and I'm Katie Phang. [music; mid-temp hip-hop positive triumphant groove; series intro theme] Katie Phang: In just an hour or so, these students will speak for their very first time in a courtroom. They're going to address the judge, conduct a cross examination, refresh a witness, enter evidence. But for now, they pace, they mutter their lines, they look up to the heavens. Karen Crawford: I pray and I ask the Lord to help me prayer bring back to remember the things that I've studied. Katie Phang: Episode two, Breathe, Think, Relax. Karen Crawford: That's why I asked him to do because you can't ask him to bring stuff that you never studied because it's just not going to drop out the sky. AJ Bellido de Luna: We're going to find out today whether or not we pushed them too hard and too far. Did I do too much with them? That's on me. So, they're in their final exam. I'm in my final exam. Did I push them too hard? Are they going to be able to do all the things that we tried to instill in them for this year? Christian Ramon: Good afternoon. How are you doing today? 3L Coach: Don't ask how they're doing. No one wants to be in court. So just “Good morning,” or “Good afternoon.” Christian Ramon: Cool. Good looking out. Well, quick question. Would you do that with your own witness. 3L Coach: I never ask how someone's doing. No one wants to be in court. AJ Bellido de Luna: Look, the imposter syndrome is alive and well in this group. Isn't it? We've seen it all week long that they're continually second guessing themselves. And it's inherent in our profession to begin with. Do I belong? Should I be here? Should I be on this team? Is it right for me? Cody Kent: I think for me it's projecting my voice more. But I think once I'm in there, I'll be okay with that. I drew a blank yesterday when we were practicing. So, I just hope it doesn't happen today. AJ Bellido de Luna: None of them have done this before. This is the first week. It's the culmination of the first week. Nerves are going to get to a bunch of them. So, some of them who you thought were going to do great are going to fall flat on their face. Some people who had struggled had a light bulb go off last night and are going to do fantastic. Everyone else is going to be in the middle. Cole Davila: Bobby C, on that credit card, your name is listed as Bobby C. Katie Phang: Cole Davila is a third-year law student trying out for the first time. He's a serious young man. He wants to be a JAG lawyer for the Air Force. Cole has a certain kind of earnestness that comes across in a good way. He competed on the moot court team last year, arguing case law only, but now he hopes to find a new home with the trial team. Cole Davila: So, it's something you got to suck up and go through, nothing's easy. So, do your duty to your team and go forward. Just knowing it's something I have to get done to not only get a grade, but cement myself as part of the team and show everybody what I'm capable of doing. Unfortunately, I've had the equivalent to about 15 hours of classes plus some work on the side as well, all summer. So, I haven't really had a break. Very busy. AJ Bellido de Luna: Any questions? Genesis Salinas: Aside from objections, if we miss any question or if we forget to approach a post and counsel or something, are you guys going to say no, like when we were practicing? AJ Bellido de Luna: You'll probably get called out for it. Genesis Salinas: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: Counsel will probably say, "Your Honor, I haven't seen that document." Genesis Salinas: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: Just stop and think. Breathe, stop, and think. Breathe, stop, and think. AJ Bellido de Luna: No, I will definitely be tough on them. You'll see I won't be smiling. That isn't going to happen. It's going to be very, very serious and see how they react to that. That's part of it as well. But at the end, you're also going to see that fatherly love of telling them they belong. Cody Kent: Sometimes going into a nerve-wracking situation, I'll listen to music. Obviously right now it's been a little difficult to do that. I'm a big Andrea Bocelli fan, so I'd like to go to any one of his songs to calm me down and relax me in the event that it’s not available to, I also pray. And so that helps calm me down a lot too. So I will usually recite a Hail Mary or two. Dean Patricia Roberts: Look at me, a Dean with real students. AJ Bellido de Luna: Look, Dean Roberts is here! Dean Patricia Roberts: Congratulations. I'm so excited. You guys look so professional. You're ready, right? AJ Bellido de Luna: Will you take a picture with them? Dean Patricia Roberts: Oh wait, do you want to get in middle? Oh wait, wait, wait. You want to stay in the middle? You can stand up there. Student: I don't know what to do. Dean Patricia Roberts: Say objection. Yay, congratulations. AJ Bellido de Luna: That’s great. Thank you. Dean Patricia Roberts: I am Patricia Roberts. I am the Dean and Charles E. Cantu Distinguished Professor of law at St. Mary's University school of law. At St. Mary's, because our advocacy program is so successful, it plays a very significant role in the law school in that, the students who take part in it devote tremendous time to it. But it is a marvelous compliment to what they're learning in the classroom and what they're learning from the written advocacy portion of their legal education curriculum. We attract people who are drawn to providing justice, to increasing access to justice. And we're also increasing access to the profession for underrepresented individuals. We're a Hispanic serving institution. Majority of our students are of Hispanic or Latina descent. We also have a tremendous population of first-generation students. We are proud to be breaking ground in many of the graduates we have in their families and in their communities in providing additional access to the profession, to those who will then pay it forward to those they represent. AJ Bellido de Luna: Breathe, think, relax. We have been together all week. None of us fight. We don't scream. We might be stern, but we don't scream. You're going to mess up, I promise you. You're going to make a mistake. It's what you do when you make that mistake. Do you stop, breathe, think, and then speak? Or do you give up? None of you will give up. None of you will. You will make a mistake. Relax, breathe, think, speak. You're going to try to get a piece of evidence in, if you don't get it in right, you know what's going to happen, it's going to be an objection, improper foundation. What does that tell you? 2L Student: We did it wrong. AJ Bellido de Luna: You didn't follow the steps right. You're going to keep going. We're not going to lie. We're not going to hide the ball. We're not going to say, 'Oh my God, you're wonderful." We're not going to do that. Our job is to correct you constantly to make sure that we get it right. And when you get it right, we're going to get it better. And when you get it better, we're going to get it mo’ better. That's my Marine Corps talking there. Have fun with this. Have fun with this. It's a great day. It's graduation day. It's graduation from boot camp day. Dani Jimenez: At the end of the day, this is still practice. You want to do well because it's affirming all the work that you've put in all week. But at the same time, for many of us, all of us really, this is the first time we've ever done this. And so, I've put in the work all week long. I'm confident in my ability to at least go out there. And so that's just what I'm hoping is going to carry me through this. There are surprises in there. So, it's really just the, I keep telling myself the whole keep calm, carry on. Because if I don't then, you know, just might crumble. John Sydow: Ready? Dani Jimenez: Yeah. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right. Thank you. 3L's. Can I see the 3L's please? Oh my God. You could see their faces right. Brooke: They're nervous. AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh my God. They're so nervous. Get them to calm down. Remember, people that go through it first, have it easier than the people that go last. Brooke: Yeah. AJ Bellido de Luna: Check them, make sure that they look right and say something, "You look great," and then send them out. Encourage them. We want them to succeed. John Sydow: You ready? My words of advice is just stay calm, breathe, think things through. You know that you'll get a passing grade as long as you think, refresh, enter a piece of evidence. So just breathe. Be yourself. Karen Crawford: Awesome. John Sydow: You're here for a reason. Misty Deatherage: Okay, can you state your name? Karen Crawford: My name is Karen Crawford. Misty Deatherage: Okay. And you may begin your cross whenever you're ready. Karen Crawford: Good afternoon. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hi. Karen Crawford: Today on direct testimony, you testified that you could recognize the suspect that robbed you. AJ Bellido de Luna: That guy right over there robbed me and Veronica J of our stuff. I was very afraid. Karen Crawford: And you're sure about that? AJ Bellido de Luna: There's no doubt in my mind. Just as clear as it was that night. Karen Crawford: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? Misty Deatherage: You may. Karen Crawford: This has just been marked as defense exhibit one for identification purposes. I am going to read the fifth row and you can just listen and look at it silently. AJ Bellido de Luna: This has not been admitted into evidence, you can't read that. Karen Crawford: I'm sorry. Okay. Earlier we reviewed this document together and you read your name on the bottom. AJ Bellido de Luna: Bobby C. Karen Crawford: Bobby C. AJ Bellido de Luna: That's my name. Karen Crawford: The document from the government says your name is not Bobby C. It says it's an alias. You were not truthful when conducting business with the police. AJ Bellido de Luna: I was very truthful. My name is Bobby C. Immediately after that incident, I had my name officially changed. Bobby C is my correct name as of August 15th, 2018. Karen Crawford: In a court of law, we can only go by the evidence that's admitted in the record. So I'll stick with the evidence that's admitted on the government document it's an alias. AJ Bellido de Luna: I'm going to stop you. I'm going to stop you. Karen Crawford: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: You're on a fishing expedition to nowhere. Karen Crawford: Oh, okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: Enter the evidence. Karen Crawford: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: This is something that you are going to have to understand. We are going to help you to stay away from things that are called rabbit holes. Karen Crawford: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: I take it you know what a rabbit hole looks like? Karen Crawford: Yes, you can never get out. AJ Bellido de Luna: And what's in the bottom of there? Karen Crawford: Nothing. AJ Bellido de Luna: Poop. Right? Rabbits live in their rabbit hole and they poop. When you go down to the rabbit hole, you're going down to a barrel of poop. You keep trying to do it a different way and that's going to just put you behind. I need you to trust me. So as much as work, and I could tell how much work you put into this, thank you for the effort, but you didn't do what I asked you to do. Karen Crawford: Okay. Katie Phang: Over the next eight hours, a line of nervous law students walks down mosquito alley to court, only to run into a buzz saw in the witness chair. AJ Bellido de Luna: Relax for a second, take a deep breath. Your questions are imperfect. It allows me to run around on you. You know what you want to do, and you want me to do it, but you didn't ask your questions that way. You took too many leaps in between. One other thing I want to cover with you. You're standing in the wrong place. There's a juror way over there. There's a juror there and there and there and there and all of them had your back to them. Don't turn your back to the jury ever again. That's the last time you're going to do that. Abby Efron: Definitely. AJ Bellido de Luna: It is in some cultures, the most disrespectful thing you can do. Abby Efron: I agree. Yep. [time passed] AJ Bellido de Luna: I don't know why you're crying because you did great by the way. Dani Jimenez: I think it was the final... AJ Bellido de Luna: Ah, the relief, right? Dani Jimenez: Yeah. My feet hurt. It's hot. AJ Bellido de Luna: And then I have one other, and this comment you're going to hate, you can't stand like that anymore. Dani Jimenez: I know, my shoe is broken. AJ Bellido de Luna: I don't care. Dani Jimenez: I know. AJ Bellido de Luna: That stuff happens. You cannot cross your legs like that. You are sending a message to the jury that everything you're saying is not worth listening to. You cannot do that. You have a broken shoe, fight through it. You have a bunion, fight through it. You were fighting through the other stuff, but your non-verbal was saying don't listen to me. Does that make sense? Dani Jimenez: It does, yes. AJ Bellido de Luna: So I'm going to caution you about overacting. So there was a little over the top. I think that's the nervousness. And when you're as smart as you are, when you pay attention to detail like you do, you don't have to act as much as I do. You were testifying through your actions and your words. The phrasing of those little statements that were coming out and go along with the body movement, what you were saying was, "I'm a liar." Yeah, no one believes you. Shut up, liar. [music; slow acoustic guitar, Americana] Katie Phang: This is Jared Hall. Jared Hall: A statement means an oral assertion, written assertion or any other nonverbal conduct if you intend it as an insertion. Katie Phang: He was called out by AJ for talking like a farmer during the early days of boot camp. A team member said Jared's voice reminded him of cornbread. AJ Bellido de Luna: I have no idea what you just said. Everything that you just said is over my head. I'm not a lawyer. Jared Hall: Let's take a step back. AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. Jared Hall: Mr. C, you called 911 on August 19th, 2019? AJ Bellido de Luna: I did. Jared Hall: And you gave 911 statements as part of you calling them? AJ Bellido de Luna: No, I'm not going to call that statements. I made a phone call. They asked me some questions. I answered them. Jared Hall: Mr. C, this is a copy of your 911 call. AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. Jared Hall: Please read silently as I read aloud line 13 and 14. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right. Jared Hall: 911 operator, "What did they take?" Caller, "My wallet, my friend’s purse. They have all our credit cards and cash. They also have her phone." AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. Isn't that what I said? Jared Hall: Mr. C did I read that correctly? AJ Bellido de Luna: You're a good reader, sir. [time passed] Jared Hall: No further questions, Your Honor. AJ Bellido de Luna: The more I you off, the better you get. Now, you're going on some fishing... Look, you're on such a fishing expedition, I drew a fishing rod with a real. Soon as we fixed your fishing expeditions, you're going to be all right, man. I do at everything I could to just screw you up and I screwed you up a little bit, but not that much. That impeachment, when you didn't ask that one more question, when you walked away with the police report, you got what you needed. So that was perfect. What was the problem? Jared Hall: With the police report? AJ Bellido de Luna: You kept trying to impeach me on your guy doing it, right? Jared Hall: Yes, sir. AJ Bellido de Luna: So what did I keep doing? Jared Hall: Kept giving me a hard time of that. AJ Bellido de Luna: And I also appreciate that you tried to change your presence in the room. Now, we still got a little bit of that thing going on, but I'm okay with it. Don't kill yourself when you're doing good. Make sense? Jared Hall: Yes, sir. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right. Good job. Jared Hall: Sounds great. Thank you. Katie Phang: And is this done in a group setting, AJ? Is this the entire group together? It's an open constructively critical situation? AJ Bellido de Luna: It is, Katie, and it has to be. And the reason why is that a lesson for one is a lesson for all. If I have to teach this, if I have to go through that with every single person, I don't want everybody crying. I don't want anybody crying. Katie Phang: There's no crying in trial ad, is that what you're saying? AJ Bellido de Luna: There’s no crying in trial team. Come on. Can you imagine when the judge admonishes you in a court and you start crying? I've been admonished by judges, I'm sure you've been admonished by judges. I don't think there's a lawyer alive who isn't admonished by a judge at some point in their career. The last thing you could start doing is crying. So you might as well get admonished right now so that you get used to being admonished when you do something that you shouldn't be doing. John Sydow: Good Luck. Vanessa Skillman: Hello. Misty Deatherage: Turn in your stuff to AJ. Please state your name. Vanessa Skillman: Vanessa Skillman. Misty Deatherage: Okay. And you may begin cross whenever you're ready. Vanessa Skillman: Perfect, Mr. C, I am showing you what has been previously marked as defense exhibit one for identification purposes. Do you recognize this exhibit? AJ Bellido de Luna: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Vanessa Skillman: This is your credit card. AJ Bellido de Luna: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Vanessa Skillman: You're able to identify this as your credit card because of your name on the bottom left? AJ Bellido de Luna: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Vanessa Skillman: This credit card is the same or substantially similar to the last time you saw this credit card? AJ Bellido de Luna: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Vanessa Skillman: Thank you very much. From the police report, from what was stated on the evidence collected. AJ Bellido de Luna: From the one officer. Vanessa Skillman: Yes, sir. AJ Bellido de Luna: Right. Vanessa Skillman: The only item that was obtained was a credit card. AJ Bellido de Luna: Two credit cards. Vanessa Skillman: Two credit cards. AJ Bellido de Luna: Right. [time passed] Vanessa Skillman: No further questions. AJ Bellido de Luna: All right, stop. I need you to pass. You didn't enter the evidence. Vanessa Skillman: Oh my God. AJ Bellido de Luna: Stay in character. Vanessa Skillman: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: You've done great. Go through the process of entering in a piece of evidence. Vanessa Skillman: Okay. Your Honor, may I approach the clerk. Misty Deatherage: You may. Vanessa Skillman: I would like to have this preliminary marked as defense exhibit one for identification purposes. Your Honor, I request that the evidence previously marked as defense exhibit one for identification purposes, be entered into evidence as defense exhibit one. Misty Deatherage: Any objections? Vanessa Skillman: No objection. Misty Deatherage: We'll admit it. Vanessa Skillman: Your Honor, may I publish to the jury? Misty Deatherage: You may. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey Vanessa. I learned something about you today. Vanessa Skillman: I'm so stressed. AJ Bellido de Luna: I learned something about you today that I didn't know. Vanessa Skillman: What? AJ Bellido de Luna: You've been perfect all week. Vanessa Skillman: I know. AJ Bellido de Luna: So I was always going to be difficult with you. I wanted to see how far I could push you. You are so focused on just getting done that you're not listening. In the first half, I had said to a bunch of questions, what's on the record? Vanessa Skillman: Nothing. AJ Bellido de Luna: Then on the second half, I said, "mm-hmm (affirmative)" to about five questions. It was four or five, I don't remember. Vanessa Skillman: I even told Karen, I was like, "He's going to say, "mm-hmm (affirmative)" and I need to go, "Is that a yes?" And I didn't do it. AJ Bellido de Luna: So the record's not clear there, right? Listen, Vanessa, I think it's clear that every single coach and every single 3L sees a potential superstar in you. If you don't stop and listen, and if you don't believe that you need help to get great, we'll never get there with you. You need to hear us do what we ask, pay attention to what you are doing when you are doing it. When you go to the army. Vanessa Skillman: Air Force. AJ Bellido de Luna: Air Force, forgive me. Vanessa Skillman: I'm paying attention to what you're saying now. AJ Bellido de Luna: Forgive me. You will one day go back and remember this statement that I just gave to you. It's going to serve you well. And the fact that you cried tells me that you care. Andy Vizcarra: Normally I would say generally my rule in life is, "You don't practice until you get it perfect. You practice until you don't get it wrong." Katie Phang: Andy Vizcarra is a third-year law student and the trial team captain. Andy Vizcarra: So you can do it in your sleep. But I think at the stage that they're at, yes, you can over practice because then they're just thinking about what's next step and making sure they don't mix the next step and they're not listening to the witness. And that's a mistake we all made when we started training for this. Because you're doing you your own show, which is fine. But if you're not listening to the witness, it's never going to work. You practice until you can't get it wrong, until it's impossible. But yeah, at their stage, there's definitely over practicing. Confidence is everything. [music; percussive mid-tempo vibraphone groove] Katie Phang: After a long wait, which incidentally gave her enough time to drive home and walk her dog, Genesis Salinas is a bundle of nerves. Genesis Salinas: I'm a Pisces. I cry a lot. We're very emotional. I'm sensitive. Emily Parker: I've cried so many times about this trial, it gets really nerve wracking. It's okay though. Genesis Salinas: I'm excited, but I'm overthinking everything that they could bring up that I don't feel prepared for. Will Hayes: And honestly, you probably going taking your dogs out was a great mental break to step away. These people have been here all day overthinking and replaying it. So that you had that time to get some air, it's good. Genesis Salinas: Oh, you're going to tell me where to stand and everything? John Sydow: Yeah, I'm going to tell you where to go and what to do. Genesis Salinas: Okay. Thanks guys. Thank you. John Sydow: So do you have the documents that you need to add to your leader? Can't really tell you what to expect other than be calm, be confident. You know the packet. Breathe. If something unexpected comes up, take a minute and think on your feet. Andy's also your court reporter. Genesis Salinas: Okay. Misty Deatherage: You're going to stand where you feel comfortable, but you should be closer to your witness. Whenever you're ready, state your name. Genesis Salinas: Okay. I am Genesis Salinas. Misty Deatherage: Okay. And you may begin your cross whenever you're ready. Genesis Salinas: Thank you. Mr. C, on August 15th, 2019, you went out for drinks? AJ Bellido de Luna: I can't remember if it was the 15th. It might have been the 30th. I don't remember. I was drinking. Genesis Salinas: Would seeing a copy of the 9111 transcript help refresh your memory? AJ Bellido de Luna: If it has the date on it, it probably would. Genesis Salinas: I am showing opposing counsel... I am showing opposing counsel the 911 transcript. Your Honor, may I approach the witness? Misty Deatherage: You may. Genesis Salinas: I am handing the witness the 911 transcript specifically referencing the very top header. Please look over the document carefully and look up at me when your memory's been refreshed. I am handing the witness defense exhibit one for identification purposes. You recognize this document? AJ Bellido de Luna: No. Genesis Salinas: I just handed you the city of San Antonio rap sheet report. AJ Bellido de Luna: Your Honor, I'm a little, I don't know why she's here, I'm a little freaked out. Genesis Salinas: Did you look at the sheet? AJ Bellido de Luna: What? I'm sorry, what do you want me to do? Genesis Salinas: If you could please look at the rap sheet. AJ Bellido de Luna: Okay. Genesis Salinas: You recognize this sheet? AJ Bellido de Luna: No, I've never seen this before in my life. Genesis Salinas: I'm retrieving the document from the witness. Mr. C? AJ Bellido de Luna: Yes. Ma'am. Genesis Salinas: This credit card was retrieved from the defendants. AJ Bellido de Luna: I'm assuming that's true. You have to ask Officer Santalopo. Genesis Salinas: This is your credit card? AJ Bellido de Luna: It is my credit card. [time passed] Genesis Salinas: No further questions Your Honor. AJ Bellido de Luna: I think right about now the people that went first are thinking, 'Boy, I'm glad I went first and not last because we will continually make it harder and harder for you." So you tried to impeach me on a rap sheet that has somebody else's name on it. That goes back to yesterday with me saying, "Don't do the hard stuff." Genesis Salinas: Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: You're not ready yet. Genesis Salinas: I thought it would be admissible under 609. AJ Bellido de Luna: I told you not to do 609. Genesis Salinas: I know. AJ Bellido de Luna: We specifically said that. Genesis Salinas: It's okay. I had the credit card backup plan. I practiced both. AJ Bellido de Luna: You did have the credit card backup plan. And I want to really applaud you for that. I didn't like the laughing. Genesis Salinas: I'm sorry. AJ Bellido de Luna: Because it's out of the moment. I was doing stuff to take you out of the moment, but I wanted you to stay in the moment. If you want to be able to compete and then go be a good trial lawyer, we're going to need to get rid of that. You got to think that every single time you're directing or crossing or opening or closing, it's real. Let’s be serious. However, having said that you have an incredible presence, Genesis. Genesis Salinas: Thank you. AJ Bellido de Luna: I think all week long, everyone's been saying the same thing, that your presence is pretty amazing. So let's just work on that little thing so that you can keep the room exactly where you want them. Genesis Salinas: I want to cry. Okay. AJ Bellido de Luna: Which is eating out of the palm of your hand because of your presence. Okay? Genesis Salinas: Everyone started to cry from stress. It's not stress. AJ Bellido de Luna: Not everyone cried. Not everyone cried. Katie Phang: We caught up with Genesis later. Genesis Salinas: I did feel prepared going in. I did know what I was doing, but I didn't feel as confident as I did going in that Monday. By Friday, I was trying to stay afloat. I was trying to get everything out and I did do everything correctly, except that I was laughing. I was very nervous. I wasn't as confident and as assertive as I should have been. And I think that's just because I was overwhelmed, and I did start crying. AJ told me I needed to be more assertive. And I think that's one thing I struggled with. I wasn't being the advocate that I needed to be for Professor AJ or for our coaches. So I didn't realize that I was, I guess, not meeting the expectations that they had wanted because I wasn't being assertive. So I don't know if maybe they thought, "Oh, she doesn't have what it takes. She doesn't get angry." And I know that I have what it takes, I just wasn't showing it. Cole Davila: All right. Court Judge: Are you ready? Cole Davila: Yes, ma'am. Yes, Your Honor. AJ Bellido de Luna: Order. Court Judge: Can you state your name please? Cole Davila: My name is Cole Davila, Your Honor. Court Judge: Okay. And when you're ready to begin your cross, you may begin. Cole Davila: Thanks Your Honor. Bobby C, on the night of August 15th, you went out with a friend? AJ Bellido de Luna: I met a friend. Cole Davila: You met a friend? And that friend was Veronica J.? AJ Bellido de Luna: She's just a friend. There's nothing going on. We're just friends. Cole Davila: And you two went out to a bar that night. Do you recall making a 911 call that night? AJ Bellido de Luna: I definitely did when your guy robbed me. Cole Davila: Would seeing a transcript of that 911 call refresh your memory. AJ Bellido de Luna: Maybe not. No. Cole Davila: May I approach witness, Your Honor? Court Judge: You may. Cole Davila: If you can read that. And once you're done refreshing your memory, can you look back at me? You two were robbed. AJ Bellido de Luna: We were, by that guy over there. Cole Davila: And these two individuals, when they robbed you, they brandished a gun. AJ Bellido de Luna: I'm sorry. Say that again? Cole Davila: The two individuals who robbed you, one of them brandished a gun. AJ Bellido de Luna: Oh, they both had guns. Cole Davila: Both had guns? AJ Bellido de Luna: Yes, sir. Cole Davila: Is your testimony today that both the individuals had guns? AJ Bellido de Luna: Yes. Cole Davila: May I approach the witness, Your Honor. Court Judge: You may. Cole Davila: Bobby C, this is a transcript of your 911 call from the night of August 15th. I direct your attention to line number 10. AJ Bellido de Luna: Right. Cole Davila: If you can read along silently, as I read aloud. No, they pointed a gun, took our stuff and ran away. Did I read that correctly? AJ Bellido de Luna: You did. Cole Davila: So they pointed a gun at you that night. AJ Bellido de Luna: They pointed a gun. Each one of them had a gun. They, them, two people had a gun each. Each of them pointed a gun at me and Veronica. Two guns. They, gun. Cole Davila: Bobby C, if I may continue. When you saw them, you weren't able to get a good look at either of them? AJ Bellido de Luna: That's a fair statement. They did have a gun in our face. Cole Davila: It all happened so fast. AJ Bellido de Luna: It was really quick. Cole Davila: Now, on direct examination, you said that you got a good look at one of their faces. You never saw the police report? AJ Bellido de Luna: No. Cole Davila: Now, at the gas station you saw the police officers arrest two individuals. AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah, I think that's right. Cole Davila: And at that moment of the arrest, you did not identify either of the defendants as the man arrested. AJ Bellido de Luna: I did not. Cole Davila: No further questions, Your Honor. Katie Phang: Mariela Encinas was the first to arrive this morning. Mariela Encinas: Okay. John Sydow: Take a deep breath. Mariela Encinas: I can open my binder and have things out? Katie Phang: In fact, she was the first to arrive every morning during the week quietly taking copious notes and working with the 3L's on her strategy. John Sydow: So yeah, all eyes are on you, but they're all eyes on you because you're the boss, right? Emily Parker: Yeah, you're the boss. Katie Phang: Mariela's goal is to become a prosecutor to try cases in a special victim unit. Judge: Okay. Please state your name. Mariela Encinas: Mariela Encinas. Judge: Okay. And as soon as you're ready, you may begin your cross. Mariela Encinas: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. C. AJ Bellido de Luna: Hey. Mariela Encinas: On August 15th, 2019, you were at Barbaro restaurant. AJ Bellido de Luna: I was at a restaurant, it was named after a horse, but I can't remember if Barbaro was a horse or not. I don't know, I don't remember. Mariela Encinas: Okay. If I show you a copy of your 911 call transcript, would you be able to maybe refresh your memory with that? AJ Bellido de Luna: If it's in there, yeah, I think it might. Mariela Encinas: And on that night after you were getting some dinner and a drink with your friend, Veronica, you decided the best decision was probably to walk her home? AJ Bellido de Luna: I didn't want her to walk home... Oh, I'm sorry. Court: Objection, relevance. Judge: What is relevance? Mariela Encinas: Evidence is relevant if it A, has any tendency to make effect more or less probable than it would be without the evidence and B, the fact is of consequence in determining the action. Judge: Okay. And how is this relevant? Mariela Encinas: This is relevant because it establishes the night and his ability to recall the events of that night. Judge: Okay. Overruled. Go ahead. Mariela Encinas: So when the guns were pointed at you, it was frightening. AJ Bellido de Luna: Terrifying. Mariela Encinas: It was hard to focus. AJ Bellido de Luna: I thought I was going to die. Mariela Encinas: All you could really focus on was that gun. AJ Bellido de Luna: I looked right down that barrel and was just waiting for the blast. Mariela Encinas: So you couldn't really focus on anything other than that gun? AJ Bellido de Luna: No. I was also focused on Veronica Jay because I was walking her home to protect her and I couldn't against that animal. Mariela Encinas: And you were held at gunpoint? AJ Bellido de Luna: Yeah. Mariela Encinas: And being held at gunpoint made it difficult to be able to focus on anything but your safety. AJ Bellido de Luna: And Veronica's safety. I was there for Veronica the whole time. Mariela Encinas: But it was hard to focus on anything other than that gun being held at gunpoint? AJ Bellido de Luna: Yes. [time passed] Mariela Encinas: No further questions, Your Honor. Judge: You didn't let it deter you, her objection. You know what you need to get in, you know that you need it. And so you're going to find a way to make it happen. So, that was pretty good. Coach Jason Goss: I'll say that your voice is awesome. I love it. I love the way that you projected it. You fill up this room and it takes a lot to do that because you're self-conscious about your voice when you start out. Just remember that, keep it, never let that go. Never let the way that you walk up the back up to his face and put it in. All that, you're owning the courtroom. That's exactly what you have to do. AJ Bellido de Luna: I asked them to comment, because I don't like gushing over first-year trial team members too much. The reason why I think I'm so impressed is because I remember you from Monday, afraid to death from the very first assignment. I would not have predicted on Monday what you did today. You had an amazing day. Thank you. Mariela Encinas: Thank you. Kevin Huffman: How'd it go in there? Mariela Encinas: I feel it went well. It was definitely a little intimidating. I enjoyed it. There were a few hiccups, definitely things that you can't really plan for. I didn't rehearse and rehearse to point of memorization because I knew that Dean AJ was going to throw some things in there that there's no way to rehearse. So to rehearse, to the point of memorization really wasn't worth it for me. Having the 3L's to be able to listen to me over at least enough to tell me what I'm technically doing wrong without knowing what's coming. Kevin Huffman: What do you want to do? Mariela Encinas: I want to work for a while prosecuting. And eventually after I spend a while prosecuting, work in appeals for wrongful conviction. The worst thing a person can do is knowingly put someone away the wrong way. AJ Bellido de Luna: Now, Monday we came together and we started from scratch. I want you to think in just the little bit of time that we've been together, where you were, who you were and where you are right now? And I want to ask you this question and I want you to just have this introspection. I like where I'm going. I like where I am. I look forward to the next challenge. If you say “Yes” to all three of those, we have work to do starting on Saturday. If you didn't say “Yes” to all three of those, you need to come see me because this isn't for you. We are going to work you harder than you did this week. Some of you, several of you, cried, happy, sad tears. Either today or yesterday or this week, you're going to cry more. You're going to be upset at me. You're going to be upset at yourselves. You're going to be upset at each other. You know you better than any of us. Can you take that kind of criticism? Can you be upset with your partner and still be respectful of them? If you can, we're your home. If you can't, I need you to come see me. And I want you to ask yourself if you like where you are? And if you are, then we're in a good place. Katie Phang: The next day, the entire team gets together at a local bar in San Antonio. The 2L's are burned out, but they're happy. The 3L's spot the rookies drink and pat them on the back. Welcome to the team, rookies. Genesis Salinas: Okay never mind, I'll get nachos. You can have some, you want to try them? Taste them, they're different. Katie Phang: Everyone is anxious to find out who's going to be assigned to the upcoming trial competitions that are being held around the country. Leigh Ann Greenberg: It was the hardest thing I've ever died. He was being extra. We'll put it that way. He was being extra as the witness. Dani Jimenez: It was a lot. I cried, but it was a good cry. And about two minutes before I went in the courtroom, my high heel broke and I had to walk back and forth in the courtroom and it was dreadful every single time. Next time I'll go bare foot or with super glue. Marina Encinas: The 3L's prepared us. The 3L's helped us. We probably would not have been as confident if we didn't have them right before like, "You got this. It's fine." I think we're a solid group. I'm really excited to work with my fellow 2L's. But I think just combine us with the 3L's and the support that they've shown us and we're going to be solid. Karen Crawford: Yesterday was a lot. I didn't cry in the room. I was crying before I got in the room. I was reflecting. I was raised by my grandparents and they didn't go past third grade. They were born in the south, raised in the south. They didn't even go past elementary school and I'm standing in a law school and people are saying that you should be on a trial team. I felt like a weight of, you got to do your best. I just felt a weight of my family history. I just felt a weight like, if you get a chance to sneak in the room, you got to try to do your best because you don't always get a chance to even get in the room because a lot of times they slam the door. So this is new for me because I don't like to not know things. I don't like to be not on top of my game. I don't like to not do stuff right. So this is stressful when I don't get it right the first time. I can't give up. Vanessa Skillman: Vanessa Skillman. Oh, I cried. There was no, I was on the verge of tears. I cried. There's a lot of pressure whenever you're doing it. There's pressure on yourself because you want to be a good advocate. And then there's pressure, I guess for all the external things, because I want to do well. I want to do well in this course. I want to show that I'm good. But looking back, I wouldn't have changed anything. So I think it's important to mess up because it's important to mess up now in something that doesn't matter or affect anyone, that way you can be a better advocate and attorney later on when your client is actually relying on you. AJ Bellido de Luna: We know how hard you work. Kind of a little bit of a hell. Thanks everybody for coming out. We went to seven competitions last year. Our team, this year, we're going to go to eight competitions in the fall. I truly believe that our time is now. I know that Jason believes it. Maritza and Deb and all the coaches. We believe that our time is now. To our 2L's, before I tell the 3L's where they're going, every single 3L will tell you the same thing. They sacrificed a ton for their personal development and for their team, for themselves and for each other. You have to be able to do the same thing if you want to be great. And we start working Monday. So for the National Trial League, representing us there are going to be Kenneth, Robin, Steadhill, Will, Stephanie, and John. AJ Bellido de Luna: The Battle of the Experts is the next competition that starts up. We're going to be represented by Andy V, Jasmin. And we're going to do something special. We're going to add Cole to that list, to witness for us, he's only got one year, but you all saw him yesterday. He's earned that right. We were waiting for yesterday to make this final call. I really want to win. I want to win all of these. Those are our competitions. 2L's, I'm really proud of you. I'm happy to be your director, your coach. I want you to work really hard. These 3L’s have set, they set a stage for you. So let's get to work. Let's work hard. Let's work smart. This last week is nothing like what I'm about to put you through. This was like hell preparation week. Work. Stay with me, stay with us. Congratulations to all of you. Let's have a great year. [music; mid-tempo positive, moving, affirmative, strings and ambient pads] Students: Congratulations. Students: I'm really excited everyone. [music; mid-tempo hip-hop positive triumphant groove; series intro theme] Elie Honig: That is a great murder scenario for a mock trial, because it’s not your obvious premediated murder. That was not supposed to happen. When they’re done beating him to death, I think the De Niro character says to the Pesci character, “What’d you do?” Katie Phang (host): That’s next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of Sound Argument and iHeartRadio. Created, produced, written and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Sound design, editing and mixing by Lisa Gray, Evan Tyor and Taylor Chicoine This episode had additional field production by Kristen Cabrera. Executive producers are Taylor Chicoine and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. [END] Previous Next

< Back Episode 7 Bonus: Katie catches up with Brooklyn Law School Air date: July 11, 2022 A spate of recent Supreme Court decisions are eroding the civil rights of all Americans, especially women. Katie Phang checks in with the Brooklyn team to gauge their reactions to the overturning of Roe v Wade and other decisions. Listen to how these future lawyers plan to fight for and protect our rights. Learn more about the schools, programs and special guests: Brooklyn Law School Brooklyn Law School Safe Harbor Clinic Brooklyn Defender Services New York Civil Liberties Union North American South Asian Law Student Association Follow us on Twitter @ClassActionPod and Instagram @ClassActionPod Visit our show page for transcripts and more details about the series at ClassActionPod.com Follow host Katie Phang on Twitter @KatiePhang and Instagram @KatiePhang . TRANSCRIPT KATIE PHANG And we are recording. So as somebody who's been doing this for more than 20 something years, this being a trial lawyer, I'd love to know how you guys are feeling, because candidly, I'd like to feel a little bit better about kind of the state of play because I'm a little bit disheartened by what's been going on. ELLIE SANDS I'm more than happy to speak on that. I'm currently working as a legal intern for the New York Civil Liberties Union and I mean their legal policy department. So as the Doss decision has come out, it's been a really interesting time to be working in civil rights litigation and especially to be on the ground at city hall in the middle of protests JANE DOWLING: Yeah, I mean, I truly never thought that I would be sitting, studying for the bar that I would be sitting, studying for the bar and get a notification on my phone saying that Roe V Wade was overturned. Like I was sitting in, in this seat. I don't think I'll ever forget it, doing a n MBE practice set and then like that I snap my fingers in case the audio didn't pick that up. Then like that, my rights were taken away for me. PHOEBE MENAKER: I actually had a similar thought, like when this all happened, I was thinking like, I remember learning about Roe and Casey and Griswold and all the, like all these cases in common law just a year ago. And I think I was with a friend come like at work. I remember I was sitting in the courtroom waiting actually for a trial to start and the decision came out and, like, in addition to like the just automatic devastation and not shock because it wasn't a surprise to be honest, but like devastation and just confusion was also like, what does this mean for the future in terms of our legal education? KATIE PHANG: I'm very upset and disheartened because I used to always say that the courts were a place of recourse. The courts were a place that you could go to get some sense or some semblance of reasoned explanation decisions that had some bases that were grounded in law, right? That had some type of reason to them. And that it's been very hard as a woman, as a mother, as a human, to figure out how it's possible to have somebody regulate your uterus and your vagina, but not regulate a firearm. ELLIE SANDS: I've been hearing a lot of this rhetoric that this system is broken, the judicial system is broken. And I disagree with that sentiment in a sense, because I think for a system to be broken, it needs to be fully functioning to begin with. And I don't think that that was ever the case, in any American institution, to be honest, I think that we are a society that was founded upon murder and racism and violence and to be an educated American citizen. You have to acknowledge that history. I think we are in extremely hypocritical nation. We invade other nations on the pretense of morality in human rights, but in our own backyard, we are violating the eighth and 13th amendment in prisons. And we are forcing 10-year-olds to carry a pregnancy to term when they're the victim of rape or incest and we kill or injure over a hundred thousand Americans every year with guns. So I think, I personally have always felt a sense of urgency and responsibility to advocate for everyone's equal, equal rights. and that comes from a place of compassion and empathy, but I've shifted to a feeling of anger in the past couple of weeks when my own personal rights have, have been under attack and have been threatened. KATIE PHANG Do you feel like you're now even more primed in light of all of the, the civil rights that are kind of at issue now because of the Supreme court decisions you guys feel like it's made you even more ready because you've, you've had a test run now. I mean, you guys have, have done, you know, mock litigation involving civil rights, and that's exactly what's about, to really kind of come to a forefront in every state of this land. Every state's going to have massive litigation, which will eventually end up in front of the Supreme court again, I think on critical civil rights issues. KATHRINE BOYKO I think that having this opportunity to do this particular competition, two semesters ago was very important to me. I never had, um, experienced, I used to work in personal injury and then I dabbled with criminal law, but like this specific competition really kind of put me in the center of, you know, what it's really like, there's so much hate in this world. There's so much divide in this world. And again, the whole competition is about homeless people, literally being persecuted because they were homeless. And that just adds on to everything. And just intertwining it back to the row question, Roe V. Wade question that you had before, it's just, it's so ironic that we're law students. We're supposed to go out and defend people and stand up for people's rights, but I've never felt so hopeless and sad and angry than now. And it's just, I'm supposed to go out there and help people. And I'm just so hopeless myself right now. KATIE PHANG: Anjani, I know that you want to focus on immigration, no shortage of massive immigration issues that have come out of the last administration and the one right now, there's Title 42 . That's going on the remain in Mexico, Supreme court dealt with that gave the Biden administration and went on that, but title four, two, still there. I mean, that's just a small example of some of the issues that are going on and that's just on the border that doesn't encompass all immigration issues, but are you still focusing on that you think when you graduate from law school or has the recent kind of slew of what I will editorialize say are bad decisions from SCOTUS, changing your mind as well as it did for Kathrine? ANJANI SHAH: Yeah. I'm still planning to do immigration law. That's kind of always been my compass. This summer I'm working at a public defender's office in New York, in their immigration practice. And so you're seeing the overlay of immigration issues with criminal issues, with family issues, with civil issues. And it's like all of that together. Obviously , there are severe impacts on these, this population of, of folks that we're working with given this term's decisions. But, you know, for a long time, immigration has been a punching bag. It's been used as a bargaining chip by our government. The dreamers they've been used as a bargaining chip. And I think, folks in this room, they'll say, you know, obviously I'm angry, obviously I'm upset, but for so long immigration advocates have been dealing with this and our populations have not had access to abortion rights. They've not had access to interstate travel. And so I think, you know, we have been preparing for this in the immigration world. We have always dealt with these issues. And so to the extent that it's new or different, it is for a different population of people. So, yeah, I'm still walking that path. I think it's the most vulnerable group of people that, you know, you can, you can work with in this country. And, and I say that with a grain of salt, of course, because I hope someday that there are more rights afforded to undocumented folks and people who are seeking immigration relief and that the system becomes better. But that's, that's my path. I'm still walking it and, and we'll see how it goes. And hopefully I don't get burnt out in the process, but I'm working on that too. So it's a journey. KATHRINE BOYKO: I think that there are just so many different things that are going on in this world today that, um, if you can't identify with one thing you can, uh, definitely identify with another or feel like you're being affected somehow, just even I remember Anjani and I participated in this – ANJANI SHAH: We worked with Safe Harbor Clinic from Brooklyn Law School to help with TPS temporary protected status for Ukrainian refugees. KATHRINE BOYKO: And I just remember so many people from Brooklyn law school from other schools and other places showing up, you know, maybe no one having anything to do with Ukraine, having no ancestors or, or family members from there. And people were so willing to show up and help. And if people are so willing to do that, then you know, I'm very sure that there's going to be a lot of students who are changing their minds about which kind of law they want to practice here and what they want to do with their careers in the United States, within the United States. So, I have no doubt that many people are going to, that might be changing their career paths and what they want to practice. KATIE PHANG: And how are you feeling, Kathrine? I know that your mom was a lawyer in Ukraine, so you have a very personal connection to it. Um, how are things going and do you, how are you feeling about the fact that this is still an ongoing war in Ukraine and, and it hasn't ceased and there's been some recent developments with, um, admission, uh, for NATO, et cetera. But I mean, it's, it's a lot. So how are things going for you and your family? KATHRINE BOYKO: I honestly, every morning I turn on the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal and it's usually like the front page on the, on the internet and every day it's just, people are dying, cities getting bombed. It's just insane. And my mom is always on the news anytime she has free time, she's reading something or listening to something and hoping she like one day gets excited. She's like, okay, I think this is going to come to an end. And then the next day something horrible happens in some part of Ukraine. And she's just like, oh no, this is going to take a while. And, we have family that has left Poland. Some to Canada. I had family coming in this month of, uh, here to our home and it's sort of a bittersweet experience because I'm happy to see them, but I know why they're here. And it, it, it breaks my heart, but my mom, she's a para. She works as a paralegal. Um, and she's always constantly doing research to see what kind of lawyers are out there, immigration lawyers, uh, who can help, um, so that she stays connected and she has information, um, to give out to people who are interested. So it's a struggle every day, but we're, we're seeing stronger. We're going to stay positive. ELLIE SANDS: It's not a sense of anger for myself, but it's a sense of anger for the fact that time is a finite resource , and we don't have time to be fighting these old battles. We have so much progress that still needs to be made in terms of systemic racism. Um, in terms of institutions like the education system, the criminal justice system, police reform, police brutality, um, things that I'm deeply committed to myself and we've fought these battles already. And so I'm angry in the sense that it's now hindering the progress that I'm personally working towards. And I know people who are invested in civil rights and civil liberties are working towards, um, because we just, we have so much more work to do. KATHRINE BOYKO And so I think that echoing Ellie, that I'm going to make a decision to try to, you know, keep it together, stay strong and, you know, still have faith that, you know, this country will one day go the right direction. KATIE PHANG But meeting all of you, all of the students, undergrad in law school and the total unadulterated joy, passion, desire to affect change makes me feel so much better about where this world is heading, where my little girl is going to have for her future. What type of place she's going to have a seat at the table because of women like you. It makes me feel a lot better. We live in a very difficult world with very selfish people that sit in seats of power. So to be able to listen to all of you, say what you care about and how it impacts you and why it motivates you to do what you're going to do, helps me breathe a sigh of relief to say, okay, the world's going to be in a good place and we're going to be in, and we're, I'm leaving this world, this world of law, the world in general, this world's being left in good hands. # END Previous Next

< Back CAITLIN DOUGLAS Student, Dillard University "I'm a troublemaker to a lot of people. I was heavily involved back home in protesting, marching and grassroots activism. And so, I'm deemed pretty aggressive most of the time because I stand ten toes down on what I believe in. It's good trouble. I make good trouble." Previous Next

< Back PREET BHARARA with guest, Former U.S. Attorney, SDNY, Author, Podcast Host. "One of the most important things that you can do at a trial, generally speaking, and probably in life, is be yourself." Previous Next